00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:02.200
The officer said this craft has shot forward

00:00:02.200 --> 00:00:07.459
about 30, 40 feet into a hole that sort of appeared

00:00:07.459 --> 00:00:10.740
in the sky, went into the hole and the hole closed

00:00:10.740 --> 00:00:12.619
up or zipped up behind it and this thing was

00:00:12.619 --> 00:00:17.579
gone. It was, according to them, was like a big

00:00:17.579 --> 00:00:21.320
long 40, 50 foot long paper dart. It's a metallic

00:00:21.320 --> 00:00:24.359
structured craft. So they jump onto Heathrow

00:00:24.359 --> 00:00:27.019
and say, hey, this is a no -fly zone. What have

00:00:27.019 --> 00:00:30.890
you got up here? and what is this thing and Heathrow

00:00:30.890 --> 00:00:32.929
said there's nothing up there you're on your

00:00:32.929 --> 00:00:35.310
own so they start circling this object in the

00:00:35.310 --> 00:00:38.850
sky and they do it nose on a bit like a gunfighter

00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:41.409
might circle another opponent before drawing

00:00:41.409 --> 00:00:44.090
in a western or like a predator circling its

00:00:44.090 --> 00:00:46.210
prey you know in the jungle so they start looking

00:00:46.210 --> 00:00:47.990
at it through the floor the forward looking infrared

00:00:47.990 --> 00:00:52.149
David Hammond then says that on the infrared

00:00:52.149 --> 00:00:55.729
the back of the object started to heat up Part

00:00:55.729 --> 00:00:57.850
of it went up at a right angle. This was confirmed

00:00:57.850 --> 00:00:59.969
by David Frampton. So we've got corroborating

00:00:59.969 --> 00:01:04.090
witnesses here, chaps. At which point this craft,

00:01:04.329 --> 00:01:06.030
and this is the incredible part, and I'll just

00:01:06.030 --> 00:01:08.010
say as the officer said, this craft has shot

00:01:08.010 --> 00:01:12.269
forward about 30, 40 feet into a hole that sort

00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:16.049
of appeared in the sky, went into the hole and

00:01:16.049 --> 00:01:18.370
the hole closed up or zipped up behind it and

00:01:18.370 --> 00:01:21.790
this thing was gone. So welcome, Roy. Thank you

00:01:21.790 --> 00:01:24.469
for joining us. You were a speaker at one of

00:01:24.469 --> 00:01:27.150
my UFO identified minicons a couple of years

00:01:27.150 --> 00:01:29.469
ago now. So it's good to see you again. Thanks

00:01:29.469 --> 00:01:32.530
for popping on the show. I really appreciate

00:01:32.530 --> 00:01:34.370
you getting me on here and it's great to be here,

00:01:34.390 --> 00:01:39.689
gents. Thank you. Awesome. So I guess some people

00:01:39.689 --> 00:01:42.670
might know you. Got a few books here during the

00:01:42.670 --> 00:01:45.370
past and obviously done the conference circuit

00:01:45.370 --> 00:01:48.250
a little bit, a few talks and stuff around the

00:01:48.250 --> 00:01:52.810
UK. You are a serving West Midlands Police Firearms

00:01:52.810 --> 00:01:56.409
Inspector, which is obviously quite a high ranking

00:01:56.409 --> 00:02:00.569
officer. So before we go into kind of the UFO

00:02:00.569 --> 00:02:02.209
stuff, do you want to give us a bit of background

00:02:02.209 --> 00:02:04.109
into yourself and kind of your history, both

00:02:04.109 --> 00:02:06.530
in the police and in the UFO subject? Just a

00:02:06.530 --> 00:02:10.150
bit of a will. Yeah, sure. I did six years in

00:02:10.150 --> 00:02:13.770
the army, left the army and then enlisted in

00:02:13.770 --> 00:02:17.520
the police. And I've served almost 27 years.

00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:19.500
The first four and a half years were in Surrey

00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:21.860
Police. And then I transferred up to Westminster

00:02:21.860 --> 00:02:24.080
Police after, as I say, four and a half years

00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.759
as a serge. And then in Westminster Police, got

00:02:27.759 --> 00:02:30.259
promoted to inspector. I was on the Firearms

00:02:30.259 --> 00:02:32.969
Operations Unit. I've since come off. And I'm

00:02:32.969 --> 00:02:36.610
back on to 999 response policing. So, you know,

00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:40.530
going to burglaries, robberies in progress, domestics,

00:02:40.530 --> 00:02:43.810
car chases, that type of thing. So I'm basically

00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:46.050
back to where it all began for me at the start

00:02:46.050 --> 00:02:51.069
of my career. So in a nutshell, my ethos is three

00:02:51.069 --> 00:02:53.569
things in regards to policing that are really

00:02:53.569 --> 00:02:56.009
dear to my heart. Number one is locking up bad

00:02:56.009 --> 00:02:58.310
guys. And when I say bad guys, I mean proper

00:02:58.310 --> 00:03:01.580
bad guys, burglars, robbers. The people you want

00:03:01.580 --> 00:03:04.759
to see in jail. And the second thing is keeping

00:03:04.759 --> 00:03:07.219
good people safe in the beds at night. And the

00:03:07.219 --> 00:03:09.860
third thing is really important to me is looking

00:03:09.860 --> 00:03:12.740
after the welfare of the officers that I'm honoured

00:03:12.740 --> 00:03:15.439
and fortunate enough to supervise on a daily

00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:19.139
basis. So that's my policing ethos and my career

00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:26.560
in a nutshell. 27 years almost. Awesome. So we

00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:28.879
get a lot of people ask a lot of questions around.

00:03:29.900 --> 00:03:32.879
uh ufos and kind of government approach and stuff

00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:34.759
like that so i guess one of the first questions

00:03:34.759 --> 00:03:36.479
that all people will want to kind of know is

00:03:36.479 --> 00:03:40.939
is there any or have you had any experience in

00:03:40.939 --> 00:03:44.879
investigating ufos through a police channel has

00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:46.620
there ever been some kind of any cause where

00:03:46.620 --> 00:03:48.819
you it's kind of been any any relation into that

00:03:48.819 --> 00:03:53.199
this sort of thing i've never had an official

00:03:53.199 --> 00:03:57.360
request from my own organization westminster

00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:01.370
police or indeed any other one of the 43 police

00:04:01.370 --> 00:04:03.449
forces up and down the length of England and

00:04:03.449 --> 00:04:08.430
Wales to investigate a UFO or UAP incident, as

00:04:08.430 --> 00:04:11.590
the trendy term is now. My involvement is purely

00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:15.550
from appeals that I conducted online for serving

00:04:15.550 --> 00:04:17.850
or former police officers to get hold of me and

00:04:17.850 --> 00:04:21.110
tell me about their occurrences. And when I...

00:04:21.339 --> 00:04:23.740
uh have been entrusted with those encounters

00:04:23.740 --> 00:04:26.000
i've then gone on to investigate those to the

00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:29.839
best of my ability uh using a myriad of tools

00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.899
that are available at my disposal but officially

00:04:32.899 --> 00:04:35.339
i've never had anything reported to me it's all

00:04:35.339 --> 00:04:38.920
from the officers and a bit of trust from them

00:04:38.920 --> 00:04:41.560
in me to tell their stories and investigate their

00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:48.199
cases is there any official protocol for serving

00:04:48.199 --> 00:04:51.439
police officers if they were to witness something?

00:04:52.459 --> 00:04:54.899
You know, there used to be, Greg. There used

00:04:54.899 --> 00:04:57.620
to be. And it stopped probably 15 or 20 years

00:04:57.620 --> 00:05:00.139
back, and that's a shame. There used to be like

00:05:00.139 --> 00:05:01.920
a daily occurrence book, probably at most police

00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:06.740
stations. Not so much anymore. And part of the

00:05:06.740 --> 00:05:08.879
protocol was to then report the matter to the

00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:12.660
RAF. And we just don't do that anymore, which

00:05:12.660 --> 00:05:18.110
surprises me, really. I don't know whether the

00:05:18.110 --> 00:05:21.149
reason for that is because the police see it

00:05:21.149 --> 00:05:24.350
as a military issue, because if something has

00:05:24.350 --> 00:05:27.370
breached our airspace without permission, what

00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:28.790
are we, the police, going to do about it? We

00:05:28.790 --> 00:05:30.870
don't have jets or anything. We have a helicopter,

00:05:31.050 --> 00:05:32.709
but I would suggest that the helicopter is not

00:05:32.709 --> 00:05:36.990
the best airborne vehicle to go and come into

00:05:36.990 --> 00:05:39.649
contact with a UFO or craft of unknown origin.

00:05:39.790 --> 00:05:43.069
So maybe it's because it's more of a military

00:05:43.069 --> 00:05:46.089
problem. We just don't seem to get involved,

00:05:46.410 --> 00:05:48.670
which is a shame, really, because it's probably

00:05:48.670 --> 00:05:50.850
one of the biggest questions facing mankind.

00:05:50.910 --> 00:05:54.670
But we don't. We're just crying and preserving

00:05:54.670 --> 00:05:57.449
and maintaining the king's peace. That's basically

00:05:57.449 --> 00:05:59.709
what we do and putting people in jail who are

00:05:59.709 --> 00:06:03.189
committing crime. Yeah, I suppose there's no

00:06:03.189 --> 00:06:06.110
sort of real response that the police could give,

00:06:06.290 --> 00:06:11.089
like the army or the RAF could in terms of, say,

00:06:11.149 --> 00:06:15.959
firepower. and response vehicles, i .e. jets,

00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:18.540
for example, that you just don't possess. Like

00:06:18.540 --> 00:06:24.019
you mentioned the helicopter and that there are

00:06:24.019 --> 00:06:29.519
some police witnesses from the air service as

00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:34.279
well and the police helicopter in your book,

00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.519
which we'll come on to in a moment. Sure. Yeah,

00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:45.930
I don't know how... the 999 call operators would

00:06:45.930 --> 00:06:50.189
feel about getting those calls through my my

00:06:50.189 --> 00:06:57.329
ex she's actually um works for uh tvp and does

00:06:57.329 --> 00:07:00.730
the 999 calls and i i wonder what she would say

00:07:00.730 --> 00:07:03.329
if somebody called up tvp thames valley police

00:07:03.329 --> 00:07:05.470
an absolutely brilliant police force some really

00:07:05.470 --> 00:07:06.850
good officers down there and he used to work

00:07:06.850 --> 00:07:08.810
with them all quite often when i was in surrey

00:07:08.810 --> 00:07:11.509
so it's a fine police force what you know as

00:07:11.509 --> 00:07:14.509
i say it's not something that we would routinely

00:07:14.509 --> 00:07:18.029
get involved in however however greg it depends

00:07:18.029 --> 00:07:20.949
on how the call is worded and it would depend

00:07:20.949 --> 00:07:24.310
on what the threat level was perceived when the

00:07:24.310 --> 00:07:26.189
call come in so for example if it was you know

00:07:26.189 --> 00:07:28.370
there's an unknown craft and it's it's flying

00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:30.670
over a school at 3 30 and it's kicking out time

00:07:30.670 --> 00:07:32.769
there's loads of kids we're going to be a lot

00:07:32.769 --> 00:07:35.310
more interested in that than it's 2 .30, 3 o

00:07:35.310 --> 00:07:36.709
'clock in the morning and there's a craft over

00:07:36.709 --> 00:07:38.769
some woods in the middle of nowhere that is not

00:07:38.769 --> 00:07:41.670
a threat to anybody. So it all depends on the

00:07:41.670 --> 00:07:43.569
time, the date, the location and the perceived

00:07:43.569 --> 00:07:45.310
threat at the time and that's all going to be

00:07:45.310 --> 00:07:47.750
governed by what the witness rings up and tells

00:07:47.750 --> 00:07:51.509
us. So the answer is it depends on what we're

00:07:51.509 --> 00:07:54.870
told when we'll turn up. It's interesting because

00:07:54.870 --> 00:07:59.029
as part of UFO Identified, every year we submit

00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:00.949
a feed of information requests to every police

00:08:00.949 --> 00:08:05.240
force. in the uk northern ireland psni and scotland

00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:08.800
and a few that are in wales and we've done this

00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:10.699
for six years now so we've got kind of six years

00:08:10.699 --> 00:08:13.519
worth of fyi responses from every police force

00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:16.519
and it's a very wide range of responses we get

00:08:16.519 --> 00:08:19.779
yet some that just don't answer at all don't

00:08:19.779 --> 00:08:22.980
ever get response even though they're legally

00:08:22.980 --> 00:08:26.459
supposed to um some that just a lot we get most

00:08:26.459 --> 00:08:29.420
of them refuse to do it they just say uh due

00:08:29.420 --> 00:08:31.579
to time constraints it would cost too much uh

00:08:31.579 --> 00:08:34.279
to get the information they're going through

00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:36.860
every report stuff like that some will send us

00:08:36.860 --> 00:08:39.700
pages and pages of information and the sightings

00:08:39.700 --> 00:08:41.580
that we've been able to get under our database

00:08:41.580 --> 00:08:44.659
from various police forces and happy to share

00:08:44.659 --> 00:08:47.440
it And there's some that just say, we don't believe

00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:49.759
this is a public interest request. So we're just

00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:52.460
going to refuse it on that basis. So we do get

00:08:52.460 --> 00:08:54.960
a wide range. And it seems to be the same forces

00:08:54.960 --> 00:08:57.320
that gives information and the same forces that

00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.220
don't. It's quite interesting because there's

00:09:00.220 --> 00:09:04.200
only two we've had in six years of doing it.

00:09:04.240 --> 00:09:07.200
So that's 300 information requests around that

00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.460
figure of where they've actually sent an officer

00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:13.500
and actually dispatched an officer. They're both

00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:16.519
in Scotland. And he actually sent, he had a report

00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:20.940
of, it was reported like a strange light. It

00:09:20.940 --> 00:09:23.059
was around seven in the evening. And he actually

00:09:23.059 --> 00:09:25.360
sent a couple of officers up there to kind of

00:09:25.360 --> 00:09:27.559
investigate it, which was interesting. It's kind

00:09:27.559 --> 00:09:29.700
of on the back of Greg's question around, is

00:09:29.700 --> 00:09:32.519
there protocol? It's kind of interesting to me

00:09:32.519 --> 00:09:34.059
in that case that he actually sent an officer

00:09:34.059 --> 00:09:37.480
to investigate a light in the sky. Nothing came

00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:39.039
of it. It just went, he went up to the location.

00:09:39.580 --> 00:09:42.179
There was nothing there. as a non -incident sort

00:09:42.179 --> 00:09:44.379
of thing but it's kind of interesting how the

00:09:44.379 --> 00:09:46.559
different police forces have different kind of

00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.299
approaches to it i guess yeah it does and going

00:09:50.299 --> 00:09:53.759
back to you know if a report comes in um one

00:09:53.759 --> 00:09:55.559
of the other factors i didn't mention before

00:09:55.559 --> 00:09:58.700
was what's the demand on the police service at

00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:01.000
the time in that area so if there's like burglars

00:10:01.000 --> 00:10:04.080
in progress or street robbery or or some crimes

00:10:04.080 --> 00:10:06.399
in action as we say at the same time one of these

00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:09.539
reports comes in the likelihood of us attending

00:10:09.539 --> 00:10:12.700
a UFO or a UAP incident are a lot less than if

00:10:12.700 --> 00:10:15.519
there was nothing going on. Then we think, well,

00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.220
why not? Let's take a look. And we would then

00:10:18.220 --> 00:10:20.159
probably. It all depends on what's going on at

00:10:20.159 --> 00:10:21.740
the time, like I say, the time and location.

00:10:22.039 --> 00:10:24.000
What I would say, going back to your freedom

00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:26.759
of information requests, is I always say to people

00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:29.500
who have been refused, because it's the old adage

00:10:29.500 --> 00:10:31.679
of, oh, it will take too much time. And it's

00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:33.379
very politely refused, isn't it, by a couple

00:10:33.379 --> 00:10:35.960
of paragraphs. I would say less is best when

00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:38.340
you make a... freedom of information request

00:10:38.340 --> 00:10:41.019
so you know rather than say you know give me

00:10:41.019 --> 00:10:44.639
the last five years worth of logs and um and

00:10:44.639 --> 00:10:47.120
you know incidents where there's been a ufo instant

00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:50.500
startup and say can you tell me from you know

00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:54.929
if you want from 20 2020 to 2026 I would send,

00:10:55.090 --> 00:10:57.870
I'd have someone sending a freedom of information

00:10:57.870 --> 00:11:00.230
request from 2020 to 2021. Someone sending a

00:11:00.230 --> 00:11:02.909
request in from 2021 to 2022. Someone sending

00:11:02.909 --> 00:11:05.629
a request in 2023. You get where I'm going with

00:11:05.629 --> 00:11:07.669
this because then the likelihood of those individual

00:11:07.669 --> 00:11:11.750
requests being refused are a lot slimmer. Obviously,

00:11:11.769 --> 00:11:13.889
just send it from different email addresses.

00:11:14.230 --> 00:11:15.909
You can have a joined up approach with other

00:11:15.909 --> 00:11:17.529
investigators. Say, look, if you do this, I'll

00:11:17.529 --> 00:11:19.490
do this. You know, you could do it that way.

00:11:21.789 --> 00:11:23.129
That's, I mean, don't get me wrong, I've had

00:11:23.129 --> 00:11:26.080
them as well. um because i you know i might be

00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:28.159
a police officer but i can still submit a freedom

00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.179
of information request um what i would encourage

00:11:32.179 --> 00:11:33.899
people to do as well is do a bit of homework

00:11:33.899 --> 00:11:35.580
before you do the free to put these requests

00:11:35.580 --> 00:11:37.220
in and i'm going to give you an example of why

00:11:37.220 --> 00:11:42.700
so i requested from police scotland there was

00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:47.919
an object seen above a sewage works in near glasgow

00:11:47.919 --> 00:11:51.519
and i wanted to know if the police helicopter

00:11:51.519 --> 00:11:54.679
was up around the same time because a helicopter

00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:59.759
was and um i knew that the police helicopter

00:11:59.759 --> 00:12:03.620
was in the sky and i know that because i went

00:12:03.620 --> 00:12:08.340
on to um i think it's a adsb to radar tracker

00:12:08.340 --> 00:12:12.360
and it is there it is right there police helicopter

00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:15.700
with a call sign and it's flying around um at

00:12:15.700 --> 00:12:18.509
the same time and the reply i got back was Yeah,

00:12:18.529 --> 00:12:20.269
our helicopter never launched on that day. Well,

00:12:20.350 --> 00:12:22.970
I'm not saying for one minute the person who

00:12:22.970 --> 00:12:24.629
looked into the freedom of information request

00:12:24.629 --> 00:12:27.330
was untruthful. What I am saying is that they

00:12:27.330 --> 00:12:30.629
probably had 20 to go through that day and they

00:12:30.629 --> 00:12:33.809
just made, like all humans do, a mistake. So

00:12:33.809 --> 00:12:36.230
what I would then do is I always see if they're

00:12:36.230 --> 00:12:39.070
going to be forthcoming, you know, and they weren't.

00:12:39.070 --> 00:12:41.389
So I then replied and said, well, I think you've

00:12:41.389 --> 00:12:44.529
made a mistake because look at this screenshot

00:12:44.529 --> 00:12:48.840
of the helicopter you said wasn't up. up at the

00:12:48.840 --> 00:12:52.240
time so could you um maybe put a bit more effort

00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:53.960
into it and give me the information that i'm

00:12:53.960 --> 00:12:55.700
after and of course they then get i'm very sorry

00:12:55.700 --> 00:12:57.960
we have made a mistake but there's always the

00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:03.480
suspicion um that um it's either uh some porcupines

00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.879
because they don't want to get involved in a

00:13:05.879 --> 00:13:09.440
subject that you know has some stigma around

00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.220
it so to speak and they just want to fob you

00:13:12.220 --> 00:13:15.439
off with no we weren't up there at the time because

00:13:15.439 --> 00:13:17.379
they'll know when you put these requests in exactly

00:13:17.379 --> 00:13:19.820
what you're asking. You know, they know you're

00:13:19.820 --> 00:13:21.159
going to be somebody who's interested in UAP.

00:13:21.980 --> 00:13:24.340
They're not daft and they just think, oh, no,

00:13:24.460 --> 00:13:26.919
we weren't up and might not even check. So have

00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:29.419
your facts ready and don't be afraid to challenge.

00:13:29.720 --> 00:13:31.480
I mean, be polite about it because they might

00:13:31.480 --> 00:13:33.539
have made a mistake, but don't be afraid to say,

00:13:33.580 --> 00:13:38.000
I'm sorry, you're incorrect and you made a mistake.

00:13:38.059 --> 00:13:40.000
Look at this screenshot. Now, can you give me

00:13:40.000 --> 00:13:41.840
the information, please? And just say, can you

00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:43.950
tell me why the helicopter was up? What sort

00:13:43.950 --> 00:13:45.750
was it on? You know, it could have been search

00:13:45.750 --> 00:13:48.149
for a missing person, a burglary in progress.

00:13:48.549 --> 00:13:50.049
It's going to be probably nothing to do with

00:13:50.049 --> 00:13:52.110
the UAP incident. It's just they're there at

00:13:52.110 --> 00:13:53.889
the time on the way to a completely unconnected

00:13:53.889 --> 00:13:57.690
job. Just see what they say. Oh, definitely.

00:13:58.830 --> 00:14:01.289
Yeah, I do sometimes go back on stuff. And there's

00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:03.429
one where I didn't go back politely, but just

00:14:03.429 --> 00:14:07.509
because. I think it was Bedfordshire. I can't

00:14:07.509 --> 00:14:09.450
remember which force it was. They came back and

00:14:09.450 --> 00:14:14.049
said, we believe this to be a vexatious. not

00:14:14.049 --> 00:14:16.970
made for any serious purpose. And I was like,

00:14:17.129 --> 00:14:21.210
right, I'll give you vexatious. But then he came

00:14:21.210 --> 00:14:23.190
back and went, yeah, no, sorry, here's your information.

00:14:23.350 --> 00:14:25.129
And actually sent me some details after and went

00:14:25.129 --> 00:14:27.230
back to him. How dare you chase up an investigation

00:14:27.230 --> 00:14:29.370
into what is one of the most fundamental questions

00:14:29.370 --> 00:14:31.610
chasing mankind? Are we alone in the universe

00:14:31.610 --> 00:14:34.350
or not? And have craft of extraterrestrial origin

00:14:34.350 --> 00:14:37.370
come to our planet? Why would you ask such, you

00:14:37.370 --> 00:14:41.580
know, unimportant questions, eh? It's mad. I

00:14:41.580 --> 00:14:44.480
can't say too much, though, because these are

00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:48.139
my colleagues. It ain't an easy job, no matter

00:14:48.139 --> 00:14:49.720
what department you're in, whether you're on

00:14:49.720 --> 00:14:52.500
the front line chasing the bad guys or whether

00:14:52.500 --> 00:14:56.799
you're in the back office doing FOI requests.

00:14:57.320 --> 00:14:59.740
They do the best, but sometimes I think they

00:14:59.740 --> 00:15:01.679
get a bit complacent and they don't give us the

00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:03.759
information that they should because maybe it's

00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.500
a bit lazy. Like you say about doing your research

00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:11.179
as well, You see people that obviously, all the

00:15:11.179 --> 00:15:14.799
FOI requests are available to find on the Do

00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.360
They Know website, and people submit the same

00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.019
requests over and over, just different people

00:15:19.019 --> 00:15:20.340
doing it. It's haven't looked, seems someone's

00:15:20.340 --> 00:15:23.700
done it yet, done it already. So I guess getting

00:15:23.700 --> 00:15:25.399
the same request over and over is going to be

00:15:25.399 --> 00:15:29.899
frustrating as well for those guys. Going back

00:15:29.899 --> 00:15:32.139
a little bit, so what started your interest in

00:15:32.139 --> 00:15:35.039
the whole UAP topic? Is it a lifelong thing,

00:15:35.059 --> 00:15:36.899
or is it something more recent? Yeah, it's been...

00:15:37.080 --> 00:15:38.620
It's been something that's been with me since

00:15:38.620 --> 00:15:40.879
I've been a kid. I've never had a UFO experience

00:15:40.879 --> 00:15:44.059
myself. I've never seen anything at all. But

00:15:44.059 --> 00:15:46.419
I've always wanted to, you know, answer the question,

00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:48.179
is there something, you know, out there? I think

00:15:48.179 --> 00:15:50.700
most people think there is life out there. There

00:15:50.700 --> 00:15:53.860
could be a weed on Saturn or an amoeba on Neptune

00:15:53.860 --> 00:15:56.039
and the case is made out for extraterrestrial

00:15:56.039 --> 00:15:58.419
life. But then you've got, is there intelligent

00:15:58.419 --> 00:16:01.200
extraterrestrial life out there? And I think

00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:03.679
that based on, you know, the balance of probabilities

00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:06.039
with the amount of stars that are out there.

00:16:06.460 --> 00:16:08.340
that there's got to be other civilizations but

00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:10.379
the sticking point for most people to find is

00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:13.899
you know has that intelligent lie traversed the

00:16:13.899 --> 00:16:15.799
great distances of time space and come here i

00:16:15.799 --> 00:16:19.100
personally think they have um but that's my opinion

00:16:19.100 --> 00:16:21.419
but what got me into this was thinking about

00:16:21.419 --> 00:16:24.279
those questions and i'm like from a young age

00:16:24.279 --> 00:16:26.779
and watching you know et and star wars and all

00:16:26.779 --> 00:16:29.340
the rest of it but My journey really started

00:16:29.340 --> 00:16:32.159
when I came back home from work in 2016 after

00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:34.679
a late shift. And I stumbled across the great

00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.659
documentary by Robert Hastings called UFOs and

00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:41.539
Nukes about UFOs above nuclear missile bases

00:16:41.539 --> 00:16:44.080
in the United States that rendered their intercontinental

00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:46.639
ballistic missiles inoperative. And there were

00:16:46.639 --> 00:16:48.299
some really credible witnesses there from the

00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:49.340
military. And I thought, well, why would they

00:16:49.340 --> 00:16:51.159
make these things up? And I thought, well, they

00:16:51.159 --> 00:16:53.580
wouldn't. And then I thought, well, who else

00:16:53.580 --> 00:16:55.860
make good witnesses? Great witnesses, in fact.

00:16:56.879 --> 00:16:59.299
UFO encounters. Surely it must be the police

00:16:59.299 --> 00:17:01.259
by virtue of the training. So I started to dig

00:17:01.259 --> 00:17:04.700
into the weeds of police reports myself. I then

00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:08.200
conducted about a four and a half, five year

00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:12.000
appeal by the BBC, the Police Federation, the

00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.720
press, seeking police witnesses to UAP incidents.

00:17:17.980 --> 00:17:21.400
And I had over 250 officers contact me. I interviewed

00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:24.140
them all. And what I did was I took the best

00:17:24.140 --> 00:17:26.599
75, the most intriguing perplexing, and put them

00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.279
into the book, Close Encounters of the Police

00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:33.420
Kind. And I named it that because I wanted anybody

00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:35.720
who heard the title to understand what the book

00:17:35.720 --> 00:17:38.779
was going to be about, even without looking at

00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:40.500
it. So if they're listening to this on a radio

00:17:40.500 --> 00:17:41.859
now, if you heard Close Encounters of the Police

00:17:41.859 --> 00:17:43.799
Kind, you're going to think, oh, that's clearly

00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:46.380
a play on the very famous film. It's probably

00:17:46.380 --> 00:17:48.480
about UAP and maybe the police are involved and

00:17:48.480 --> 00:17:50.660
you would be absolutely right. So it's the first

00:17:50.660 --> 00:17:56.640
ever. published um uk police anthology and i

00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.000
can tell you now uh fellas that the only reason

00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.039
that these officers came forward is because one

00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:05.759
of their own were asking these questions and

00:18:05.759 --> 00:18:09.400
they knew to be treated with professionalism

00:18:09.400 --> 00:18:13.039
and respect and without ridicule so make no mistake

00:18:13.039 --> 00:18:16.740
it's um the book is law enforcement interviewing

00:18:16.740 --> 00:18:20.819
law enforcement about a phenomena that's remain

00:18:20.819 --> 00:18:23.440
hidden behind the badge for for decades these

00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:25.559
guys had nothing to gain and everything to lose

00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.240
by coming forward so it was an honour and a privilege

00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.539
to tell the stories but i've been into this but

00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:34.420
for so long i just wish i could see something

00:18:34.420 --> 00:18:37.339
myself and one day maybe but if you look for

00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:39.819
something you don't tend to to see it um it's

00:18:39.819 --> 00:18:41.319
like trying to look for a four leaf clover in

00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:42.900
your garden on a summer's day you never quite

00:18:42.900 --> 00:18:44.700
find it and then one day you're not looking and

00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:47.240
poof something pops up and there you go and i'm

00:18:47.240 --> 00:18:53.130
hoping my day will come soon i guess with uh

00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:55.730
your obviously your background the policing background

00:18:55.730 --> 00:18:59.369
uh gives you a good kind of advantage point i

00:18:59.369 --> 00:19:01.049
guess for when you're sort of doing the research

00:19:01.049 --> 00:19:02.589
interviewing the question because you have that

00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:05.450
kind of investigative investigative background

00:19:05.450 --> 00:19:09.990
yeah i mean like i say i've been i've interviewed

00:19:09.990 --> 00:19:14.349
a lot of people in my time i deal with people

00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:17.049
who are less than truthful with me at the roadside

00:19:17.049 --> 00:19:20.599
on a daily basis um because surprisingly people

00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:22.859
do lie to the police would you believe it so

00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:26.240
um i have got my what i call my mythology of

00:19:26.240 --> 00:19:29.660
investigation so i operate in the abc principles

00:19:29.660 --> 00:19:32.779
of except nothing you know um believe no one

00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:35.299
and check everything when i do interview someone

00:19:35.299 --> 00:19:37.539
i've got the as the gold silver and bronze standard

00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:40.559
so gold is face to face in the same location

00:19:40.559 --> 00:19:42.619
you can tell a lot about someone by looking them

00:19:42.619 --> 00:19:44.359
in the eye and you know when they're giving you

00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:49.029
a story Silver would be, as we are now, we're

00:19:49.029 --> 00:19:50.630
talking to each other. I can see both of you

00:19:50.630 --> 00:19:52.630
guys. You can see me, but we're not in the same

00:19:52.630 --> 00:19:54.609
room, but it's not bad. You can see each other's,

00:19:54.609 --> 00:19:57.170
you know, NVCs, nonverbal communications. And

00:19:57.170 --> 00:19:58.670
from that, you can tell if someone's been a bit,

00:19:58.670 --> 00:20:01.490
maybe less truthful than what they should be.

00:20:01.670 --> 00:20:03.309
And then the bronze standard would be a phone

00:20:03.309 --> 00:20:05.670
call where you can't see anyone. So I always

00:20:05.670 --> 00:20:08.390
try and operate face to face. I check everything

00:20:08.390 --> 00:20:12.390
they tell me. When I get an account, I then look

00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:15.630
at a list I've got. And there's 50 or 60 things

00:20:15.630 --> 00:20:18.069
on there that I try to think, well, could it

00:20:18.069 --> 00:20:20.490
have been any one of these things? So a planet,

00:20:20.769 --> 00:20:23.589
you know, meteorites, drones, planes, you name

00:20:23.589 --> 00:20:28.029
it, it's on there. Now, it's very hard to tick

00:20:28.029 --> 00:20:30.769
everything off that list, you know, lasers and

00:20:30.769 --> 00:20:33.369
Chinese lanterns. But if I can tick everything

00:20:33.369 --> 00:20:36.369
off of that list and I can say categorically

00:20:36.369 --> 00:20:39.720
what. the witness saw if they're being a hundred

00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:42.480
percent kosher with me um was not one of those

00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:44.119
things that's when i look at the second thing

00:20:44.119 --> 00:20:47.019
which is secret military craft being tested now

00:20:47.019 --> 00:20:49.619
we're a very clever species uh greg and ash and

00:20:49.619 --> 00:20:51.640
we can make things that go many thousands of

00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:55.420
miles an hour um for example um there's a hypersonic

00:20:55.420 --> 00:20:57.259
glide vehicle that the russians have made that

00:20:57.259 --> 00:20:59.559
can do 27 000 miles an hour unfortunately it's

00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:01.859
a nuclear missile but we can build these things

00:21:02.589 --> 00:21:04.029
So if someone says to me it was going thousands

00:21:04.029 --> 00:21:05.589
of miles an hour, well, that doesn't mean it

00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:07.650
was non -human tech. So you think, well, how

00:21:07.650 --> 00:21:09.130
do you rule that out? Well, that's where you

00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:11.269
go to things like, you know, right angle turns

00:21:11.269 --> 00:21:14.210
that we can't do. Right. We have not got that

00:21:14.210 --> 00:21:17.809
technology. And speed does come into it. But

00:21:17.809 --> 00:21:21.349
especially when it's what I call bullet exit.

00:21:21.470 --> 00:21:22.789
So if something's going from like a hovering,

00:21:22.910 --> 00:21:27.529
you know, hovering status or flying very slow

00:21:27.529 --> 00:21:29.589
and then suddenly goes to thousands of miles

00:21:29.589 --> 00:21:32.660
an hour within a couple of seconds. And there's

00:21:32.660 --> 00:21:36.480
no signs of propulsion or jets or afterburners

00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.720
or thrusters or nothing. We know we can't do

00:21:39.720 --> 00:21:42.460
that yet. We're clever. But we're not that clever.

00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:45.859
So if I've got a craft that is doing that, then

00:21:45.859 --> 00:21:48.720
I can rule out secret craft and the military

00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:51.259
testing. And that's where I would go to the very

00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:54.039
brilliant Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, who wrote Sherlock

00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:55.839
Holmes. And what he said was this. He said, when

00:21:55.839 --> 00:21:59.460
you have eliminated the impossible, no matter

00:21:59.460 --> 00:22:01.700
what remains, no matter how improbable must be

00:22:01.700 --> 00:22:05.279
the truth. So if it is impossible. If my rule

00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.299
out list is impossible with the lanterns on and

00:22:07.299 --> 00:22:10.380
all the rest of it and planes and drones, if

00:22:10.380 --> 00:22:13.859
that's impossible and secret military craft being

00:22:13.859 --> 00:22:16.460
tested has proven to be impossible, no matter

00:22:16.460 --> 00:22:20.279
whatever remains, no matter how improbable, craft

00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:23.960
of non -human tech must be the truth. Now, it

00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.579
takes a long time to get there because it's very

00:22:27.579 --> 00:22:30.460
hard to rule everything out. And of the 250 I've

00:22:30.460 --> 00:22:32.339
interviewed, I would suggest maybe seven or eight.

00:22:32.890 --> 00:22:35.369
Of those accounts, I am satisfied that if the

00:22:35.369 --> 00:22:38.509
officer's account is as per the told me that

00:22:38.509 --> 00:22:42.049
they have witnessed non -human tech. It doesn't

00:22:42.049 --> 00:22:44.009
mean that the others haven't or some of the others

00:22:44.009 --> 00:22:46.509
haven't. It just means I couldn't rule out drone

00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:50.589
or laser or something like that. So I have got

00:22:50.589 --> 00:22:55.140
a very strict mythology of investigation. And

00:22:55.140 --> 00:22:56.519
of course, you're going to utilise things like

00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:58.819
radar app and you're going to find out where

00:22:58.819 --> 00:23:00.859
the planets were at the time because the planets

00:23:00.859 --> 00:23:03.480
are one of the most misdiagnosed things for UFOs.

00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:07.740
You've got to consider things like Fata and Morgana.

00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:10.559
which is basically a mirage. You know, you see

00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.240
like hot air in the desert and create a mirage.

00:23:13.240 --> 00:23:15.720
And sometimes it can look like ocean liners are

00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:17.319
out at sea that are a hundred foot in the air

00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:18.900
because of the hot air meeting the cold air.

00:23:18.960 --> 00:23:20.160
So you've got to consider that when it comes

00:23:20.160 --> 00:23:23.299
to UFOs, especially near bodies of water and

00:23:23.299 --> 00:23:25.259
in hot weather, you've got to think about the

00:23:25.259 --> 00:23:27.539
peridia effects where something completely innocent

00:23:27.539 --> 00:23:29.700
looks like something completely different. Like

00:23:29.700 --> 00:23:31.099
for example, when you were a kid in your bedroom.

00:23:31.660 --> 00:23:34.700
you know a coat on a stand that mixes in with

00:23:34.700 --> 00:23:37.880
a tv or something can look like a scary man in

00:23:37.880 --> 00:23:39.660
the corner of the room leaning over towards you

00:23:39.660 --> 00:23:41.440
so you've got to you've got to think about all

00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.660
these factors and if you can rule all of that

00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:48.259
out you just might have something it's interesting

00:23:48.259 --> 00:23:52.880
because with your book you start at the older

00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:55.920
cases and and slowly work through to sort of

00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:01.349
the present day so some of those witnesses back

00:24:01.349 --> 00:24:04.650
in like the 60s and 70s there was no internet

00:24:04.650 --> 00:24:10.109
they couldn't um check some of the detail which

00:24:10.109 --> 00:24:13.390
for me also provides a credibility for them because

00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:15.250
they wouldn't have been influenced by like the

00:24:15.250 --> 00:24:20.069
x -files um steven spielberg all these kind of

00:24:20.069 --> 00:24:24.349
fantastical things that people can imagine these

00:24:24.349 --> 00:24:28.740
guys are not seeing or they're seeing stuff that

00:24:28.740 --> 00:24:31.559
people see now but without the frame of reference

00:24:31.559 --> 00:24:36.640
of uap yeah they're not going to be as influenced

00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:41.359
on um tv programs and the news and disclosure

00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:46.059
um bits of newsreel that perhaps people are influenced

00:24:46.059 --> 00:24:50.599
by these days um and i think the need for you

00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:53.680
know one to get some attention was a lot less

00:24:54.269 --> 00:24:59.470
back then than it is now um i don't know but

00:24:59.470 --> 00:25:01.029
yeah some of the accounts from back in the day

00:25:01.029 --> 00:25:02.849
are absolutely brilliant it's just a shame that

00:25:02.849 --> 00:25:04.369
it is it is back in the day and they didn't have

00:25:04.369 --> 00:25:06.710
mobile phones so they couldn't quickly you know

00:25:06.710 --> 00:25:09.589
get some footage but you know we've got some

00:25:09.589 --> 00:25:11.349
great footage now haven't we from um you know

00:25:11.349 --> 00:25:13.509
the pentagon from the disclosure files and the

00:25:13.509 --> 00:25:16.170
department of defense um i think they have a

00:25:16.170 --> 00:25:20.109
lot more and i think they have video evidence

00:25:20.109 --> 00:25:22.190
that would prove beyond any and all reasonable

00:25:22.190 --> 00:25:24.880
doubt that there's uh you know a higher intelligence

00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.920
than man uh operating in the skies above this

00:25:27.920 --> 00:25:29.740
planet but i don't think they'll ever release

00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.359
it they'll just give us little tidbits enough

00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:35.480
to keep us interested um without going to full

00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:37.420
disclosure that's my personal opinion so unless

00:25:37.420 --> 00:25:39.940
a spaceship lands outside a 10 downing street

00:25:39.940 --> 00:25:41.980
or on the white house lawn i think it's always

00:25:41.980 --> 00:25:45.319
going to be denial which is a shame really because

00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:48.119
it's the most um like i say it's the most fundamental

00:25:48.119 --> 00:25:50.789
question facing mankind isn't it But we're a

00:25:50.789 --> 00:25:53.329
bit silly, really, because we're more interested

00:25:53.329 --> 00:25:58.289
in, you know, which pop stars dating which actor

00:25:58.289 --> 00:26:01.490
or, you know, what are Elton John's new shoes

00:26:01.490 --> 00:26:04.450
like? And you're like, look, that's really interesting.

00:26:04.529 --> 00:26:07.589
But what about these, you know, what about technology

00:26:07.589 --> 00:26:11.069
coming from somewhere else in space or interdimensional

00:26:11.069 --> 00:26:13.849
type stuff? And surely that's more important.

00:26:15.769 --> 00:26:17.529
the government and the press, they keep our attention

00:26:17.529 --> 00:26:19.970
elsewhere, while this really important subject

00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:22.369
is, it comes up every now and again, and there's

00:26:22.369 --> 00:26:25.829
a film released, or there's a NASA press statement,

00:26:25.849 --> 00:26:28.930
or you'll get some disclosure by the US government,

00:26:29.029 --> 00:26:30.450
and then it goes away again, doesn't it? And

00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:32.930
it should be all the time, and we should just

00:26:32.930 --> 00:26:35.950
pressure these governments into just saying the

00:26:35.950 --> 00:26:38.289
truth and what's what. But they don't, and it's

00:26:38.289 --> 00:26:42.750
such a shame. How... So you said he got about

00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:46.450
250 responses to your appeal over the four or

00:26:46.450 --> 00:26:50.430
five years. What kind of pushback did he get?

00:26:50.450 --> 00:26:53.369
Did he get any sort of negative kind of reactions

00:26:53.369 --> 00:26:55.750
to it or from your colleagues or anything like

00:26:55.750 --> 00:27:03.470
that? I mean, I was concerned about getting involved

00:27:03.470 --> 00:27:07.430
in ufology, what it would... due to my professional

00:27:07.430 --> 00:27:10.269
reputation within the police I was worried about

00:27:10.269 --> 00:27:12.849
what the officers alongside of would think and

00:27:12.849 --> 00:27:18.930
and also senior officers and I know in the past

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:21.309
that some officers have been treated quite badly

00:27:21.309 --> 00:27:23.089
in my opinion because of their interest in this

00:27:23.089 --> 00:27:27.230
topic you've got Alan Godfrey 1980 Todd Morden

00:27:27.230 --> 00:27:30.809
and his alleged abduction and he was according

00:27:30.809 --> 00:27:32.990
to his book if you've if you've read it um he

00:27:32.990 --> 00:27:34.710
was treated terribly and he said that things

00:27:34.710 --> 00:27:36.549
were put in his locker that was stolen and some

00:27:36.549 --> 00:27:39.049
class a drugs and they were due to be found on

00:27:39.049 --> 00:27:40.890
the search but he found them before the search

00:27:40.890 --> 00:27:42.670
and if they had been found he'd have been kicked

00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:44.450
out and he he said the right was on the wall

00:27:44.450 --> 00:27:47.369
so resigned um there's a few other officers i

00:27:47.369 --> 00:27:49.490
know gary hesseltine had some issues as well

00:27:49.490 --> 00:27:53.000
a brilliant investigator and an ex -police officer

00:27:53.000 --> 00:27:55.420
and detective i know he had some grief and then

00:27:55.420 --> 00:27:57.799
of course you've got el paso reserve deputy sheriff

00:27:57.799 --> 00:27:59.420
chuck zakowsky i don't know if you've heard of

00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:02.599
him but he believed that he's enhanced police

00:28:02.599 --> 00:28:05.819
training and his investigative skills in examining

00:28:05.819 --> 00:28:09.240
catheter mutilations and ufo signs bigfoot encounters

00:28:09.240 --> 00:28:12.400
and the paranormal and gave him additional insight

00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:15.809
into those matters and There was an El Paso County

00:28:15.809 --> 00:28:18.509
investigation, and it attributed a series of

00:28:18.509 --> 00:28:20.670
cat mutilations to predators. Now, he publicly

00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:24.150
challenged that on his own website, suggesting

00:28:24.150 --> 00:28:27.630
a possible UFO connection. And a couple of days

00:28:27.630 --> 00:28:30.549
later, it was February the 9th, 2011, two Colorado

00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:33.950
deputy sheriffs visited him at his home, and

00:28:33.950 --> 00:28:36.430
they took his gun badge and ID and fired him

00:28:36.430 --> 00:28:38.589
on the spot. And they said that was for contradicting

00:28:38.589 --> 00:28:41.440
and being critical of... official sheriff's office

00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:43.680
investigations in a public forum. So these things

00:28:43.680 --> 00:28:46.160
were at the forefront of my mind. Do I think

00:28:46.160 --> 00:28:47.839
I'm going to get a black bag chucked over my

00:28:47.839 --> 00:28:49.900
head and whisked away? No, I don't, because I'm

00:28:49.900 --> 00:28:51.640
more of a storyteller. Officers come to me, I

00:28:51.640 --> 00:28:53.140
write their accounts, I check, is this right?

00:28:53.940 --> 00:28:57.819
But what I do is I get the access to them because

00:28:57.819 --> 00:29:00.160
of the fact I am in the police, so they trust

00:29:00.160 --> 00:29:02.740
me. And I'm getting these subjects out there.

00:29:02.819 --> 00:29:05.279
I think what worries the police is that maybe

00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:08.759
I'm bringing some negative stigma and credibility

00:29:08.759 --> 00:29:10.990
on them. The police service, I don't know. But

00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:12.970
it's my professional opinion that since I came

00:29:12.970 --> 00:29:17.549
out of the UFO closet, officers in my own force

00:29:17.549 --> 00:29:22.029
take me less seriously than what they did six

00:29:22.029 --> 00:29:25.230
months ago. And I think that's a shame because

00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:29.069
it's a subject we should be able to talk about

00:29:29.069 --> 00:29:31.170
honestly and openly without the stigma attached

00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:33.650
to it. And one thing I always do say to them

00:29:33.650 --> 00:29:36.210
is, you know, do you have any religious beliefs?

00:29:37.199 --> 00:29:39.880
And 95 % of the population of this country do

00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:42.940
believe in God or a deity of some kind, fellas.

00:29:43.660 --> 00:29:45.859
But they do so without any evidence whatsoever.

00:29:45.940 --> 00:29:47.720
Now, I'm not knocking religion because it's really

00:29:47.720 --> 00:29:49.640
personal to people and I've got my own beliefs.

00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:51.559
And quite rightly so, we shouldn't knock religion.

00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:53.880
But what I am saying and the point I'm trying

00:29:53.880 --> 00:29:56.400
to make is that there's no evidence of that.

00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:02.509
But I'm coming at you with testimony CCTV. photographic

00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:04.490
evidence forensic evidence and all this evidence

00:30:04.490 --> 00:30:07.650
that's been you know um disclosed or spied in

00:30:07.650 --> 00:30:09.430
particularly the united states government and

00:30:09.430 --> 00:30:11.349
i would suggest i have more evidence for my case

00:30:11.349 --> 00:30:13.390
than you do for yours it doesn't mean i don't

00:30:13.390 --> 00:30:15.849
believe that god exists because i do like i say

00:30:15.849 --> 00:30:18.829
i've got my beliefs but uh it always amazes me

00:30:18.829 --> 00:30:20.789
how people poke fun at me and take me less seriously

00:30:20.789 --> 00:30:23.829
um yet they believe in something where there's

00:30:23.829 --> 00:30:26.650
no evidence to and you could argue surely that

00:30:26.650 --> 00:30:28.410
god is extraterrestrial himself because he's

00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:31.960
above man And but there's no there's no ridicule

00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:35.539
of that. It's just it's just accepted. I hope

00:30:35.539 --> 00:30:38.599
that point sort of comes across in the respectful

00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:43.000
way I'm trying to make it. Absolutely. And the

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:48.779
your fears about being taken less seriously,

00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:52.460
some of the stories and the accounts that people

00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:56.519
give in the book, that's a big fear on a lot

00:30:56.519 --> 00:30:59.890
of them and some of them. the the the accounts

00:30:59.890 --> 00:31:02.369
they're giving you they're not saying anything

00:31:02.369 --> 00:31:05.190
for like 30 or 40 years or wait until like the

00:31:05.190 --> 00:31:07.309
last year of their service before they're due

00:31:07.309 --> 00:31:10.630
to retire before they publicly talk to you about

00:31:10.630 --> 00:31:14.690
the subject so there's there's a definite it

00:31:14.690 --> 00:31:16.630
comes across in the but there's a definite fear

00:31:16.630 --> 00:31:20.089
certainly for like the old school police officers

00:31:20.089 --> 00:31:22.829
so the ones that have had the early experiences

00:31:22.829 --> 00:31:26.150
decades ago yeah For sure. I mean, when I started

00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:28.529
off on firearms, on the firearms operations unit,

00:31:28.630 --> 00:31:33.150
I kept it very close to my chest. And eventually

00:31:33.150 --> 00:31:35.349
when it started to come out, I was told by, you

00:31:35.349 --> 00:31:37.150
know, a guy I really respect, a senior officer,

00:31:37.250 --> 00:31:39.269
and he said, oh, you want to be a bit careful.

00:31:40.089 --> 00:31:42.089
And the fear was that if I went out and shot

00:31:42.089 --> 00:31:44.329
someone or ran an operation and someone got shot,

00:31:44.869 --> 00:31:47.789
God forbid killed, you would have the press saying,

00:31:47.869 --> 00:31:50.529
well, you knew Inspector Teague was mad because

00:31:50.529 --> 00:31:52.869
he was chasing aliens and all this type of stuff.

00:31:53.579 --> 00:31:55.460
And that really did frustrate me because we've

00:31:55.460 --> 00:31:57.400
got to have an open mind. And I've had other

00:31:57.400 --> 00:31:59.039
senior officers say, you know, it's not a policing

00:31:59.039 --> 00:32:00.680
matter. And I said, well, if you want to read

00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:04.579
some of these stories, I think that they are

00:32:04.579 --> 00:32:07.740
a police matter because I think the taking of

00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.660
someone's liberty without them allowing you to

00:32:09.660 --> 00:32:12.339
do so, i .e. abduction or kidnapping, that is

00:32:12.339 --> 00:32:14.400
a criminal offence. And some people are reporting

00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.339
this. So I would suggest that some of these accounts

00:32:17.339 --> 00:32:22.579
are indeed a criminal matter. um how do you investigate

00:32:22.579 --> 00:32:26.660
them for a start i don't think that um anybody

00:32:26.660 --> 00:32:30.740
piloting these craft that's non -human tech are

00:32:30.740 --> 00:32:32.339
particularly bothered about the police and criminal

00:32:32.339 --> 00:32:35.299
evidence act 1984 or our judicial procedures

00:32:36.119 --> 00:32:38.019
And I don't think there's any way that we're

00:32:38.019 --> 00:32:39.440
going to be putting them in handcuffs because

00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:41.759
of their high level of intelligence and banging

00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:43.619
them up in a cell anytime soon. But we could

00:32:43.619 --> 00:32:45.579
at least admit that we can't do that, but that

00:32:45.579 --> 00:32:48.259
the subject is real and it's happening all over

00:32:48.259 --> 00:32:50.559
this planet, which, gents, I believe it is. But

00:32:50.559 --> 00:32:52.119
like you say, some of the stories in the book

00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.200
are absolutely fantastic. And it was a real pleasure

00:32:55.200 --> 00:32:58.380
to, you know, to get them and put them in the

00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.599
book. I mean, if you want, I'm happy to talk

00:33:00.599 --> 00:33:03.019
to you about a few or we can carry on as we are.

00:33:03.099 --> 00:33:06.839
Whatever's the best for you guys. Yeah, going

00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.279
to the book, I just wanted to quickly ask, because

00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:11.660
we had a guest on recently who's a friend of

00:33:11.660 --> 00:33:15.000
mine who's a serving prison officer, and she's

00:33:15.000 --> 00:33:17.279
published a book. It's around paranormal encounters

00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.160
that serving prison officers have had in the

00:33:20.160 --> 00:33:23.140
prison whilst at work. And she had to get the

00:33:23.140 --> 00:33:25.519
book cleared and was asked quite a few questions

00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:28.319
by whatever department she had to put it through

00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:31.920
to go ahead to publish once it had been written.

00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.819
Did you have to go through a similar? Yes, you

00:33:34.819 --> 00:33:37.339
do. So I had to disclose what's known in the

00:33:37.339 --> 00:33:43.880
police as a business interest. I'll be very careful

00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:49.940
with this. I was suspicious that if I put what

00:33:49.940 --> 00:33:54.480
the book was about, it may be a no. And I didn't

00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:57.220
want to take the chance. So I just put publishing

00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:02.099
a book and I put no subject matter. And they

00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.400
never asked me. And they just said, yeah, OK,

00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:08.119
it's authorised. We're just like one sentence.

00:34:08.219 --> 00:34:09.760
So they probably thought, well, yeah, why not?

00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:13.860
OK, write your book. Bang, done. And of course,

00:34:13.880 --> 00:34:17.619
that request was put in four years ago. And the

00:34:17.619 --> 00:34:23.340
book has only now just been released. I will

00:34:23.340 --> 00:34:28.239
say no more than it's come back to bite me. But

00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:30.400
I can't say any more than that. So I'm having

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:32.989
a bit of a difficult time over it. but I was

00:34:32.989 --> 00:34:34.869
always taught that we're seekers of the truth

00:34:34.869 --> 00:34:37.309
in the police, and we should be able to openly

00:34:37.309 --> 00:34:39.690
and honestly talk about anything. You know, we're

00:34:39.690 --> 00:34:41.329
told to be honest with the public, aren't we?

00:34:41.809 --> 00:34:43.809
So let's be honest with the public and talk about

00:34:43.809 --> 00:34:51.050
this topic. But, yeah, I did go through it. If

00:34:51.050 --> 00:34:54.030
I'd have put UFO or UAP, would it have been approved?

00:34:54.710 --> 00:35:00.289
I don't know. I'm not so sure. Do you honestly

00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:05.690
believe... that this book has limited your career

00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:09.449
in the police force? Now it's been published.

00:35:12.510 --> 00:35:20.030
It hasn't helped, Greg, for sure. I'm still serving

00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:26.710
and I've got a little bit to do and I probably

00:35:26.710 --> 00:35:29.650
shouldn't say any more. than that at this point.

00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:32.590
That's fair. It was probably an unfair question

00:35:32.590 --> 00:35:35.489
from me. No, no, it's not, because your job is

00:35:35.489 --> 00:35:37.050
the interview. You've got to tease the info out

00:35:37.050 --> 00:35:38.929
of me. You can ask me anything you want, buddy.

00:35:39.070 --> 00:35:41.929
Same as yourself, Ash. And if it's a bit awkward,

00:35:42.070 --> 00:35:45.250
I'll just say. But no, you've got to ask what

00:35:45.250 --> 00:35:47.389
you've got to ask. But it has led to some uncomfortable

00:35:47.389 --> 00:35:52.550
conversations, and it's been a difficult process.

00:35:52.769 --> 00:35:54.389
But I'm really proud that I've done it, and I'm

00:35:54.389 --> 00:35:56.329
glad I've done it. And I am going to let the

00:35:56.329 --> 00:35:59.059
chips fall where they may. It's a great book,

00:35:59.139 --> 00:36:04.980
and I think because you've collected the stories,

00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:07.639
and like you mentioned earlier, you haven't gone

00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:15.079
out there with your version of everything. This

00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:17.820
is people have come to you and given you their

00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:27.159
experiences and their accounts. I think... I

00:36:27.159 --> 00:36:29.760
don't know how to word this correctly, but I

00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:34.280
do think that you haven't really put yourself

00:36:34.280 --> 00:36:38.199
on the chopping board. From my point of view,

00:36:38.199 --> 00:36:42.860
reading the book, I would say it doesn't matter

00:36:42.860 --> 00:36:48.320
to me, from a member of the public, that you're

00:36:48.320 --> 00:36:52.219
a serving police inspector. The fact that you

00:36:52.219 --> 00:36:56.730
have collected... the witness statements, essentially.

00:36:57.230 --> 00:37:01.289
And that is what a police officer does. A witness

00:37:01.289 --> 00:37:05.449
needs their version of events to be heard. And

00:37:05.449 --> 00:37:10.889
you've put them in the book from a member of

00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:15.869
the public. I don't see a problem with it from

00:37:15.869 --> 00:37:18.389
a public point of view, but I know... Neither

00:37:18.389 --> 00:37:21.909
do I, Greg. Neither do I, but there are those

00:37:21.909 --> 00:37:26.269
that do. My job... And my goal with this book,

00:37:26.429 --> 00:37:31.230
fellas, was to collate these accounts and get

00:37:31.230 --> 00:37:33.550
them out in the public eye. And the reason for

00:37:33.550 --> 00:37:36.929
that is I want people to know that this isn't

00:37:36.929 --> 00:37:40.110
just Joe the plumber or Greg the carpet fitter

00:37:40.110 --> 00:37:42.289
that are seeing these extraordinary craft in

00:37:42.289 --> 00:37:45.449
the skies. These are sworn constables, servants

00:37:45.449 --> 00:37:48.650
of the crown, guardians of law and order, you

00:37:48.650 --> 00:37:51.929
know, trained witnesses with credibility that

00:37:51.929 --> 00:37:54.699
are coming out and seeing. and have seen these

00:37:54.699 --> 00:37:58.019
things and continue to do so and i think perhaps

00:37:58.019 --> 00:38:00.840
the powers that be don't like the fact that the

00:38:00.840 --> 00:38:02.960
witnesses are credible and they want this phenomena

00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:07.619
kept in a box you know or around at least the

00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:09.820
edge of the box but these are all spilling out

00:38:09.820 --> 00:38:13.719
now into the public domain and it's casting perhaps

00:38:13.719 --> 00:38:18.059
a light on uk law enforcement that they might

00:38:18.059 --> 00:38:21.519
not want that was going to be my next question

00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.960
yeah my next question before we move on to that

00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.539
the book is is it like i said it is a great book

00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:32.480
so we we need to to get into that but i i do

00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:39.199
wonder what what the powers that be would have

00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:44.679
to withhold this kind of book like what is what

00:38:44.679 --> 00:38:49.659
is there uh purpose for this i i kind of get

00:38:49.659 --> 00:38:54.000
it in the raf and military tech and and stuff

00:38:54.000 --> 00:38:58.460
like that but from a policing point of view why

00:38:58.460 --> 00:39:02.340
do you feel that they would not want this kind

00:39:02.340 --> 00:39:05.099
of information to come out certainly from police

00:39:05.099 --> 00:39:11.099
officers past and present i mean i don't anything

00:39:11.099 --> 00:39:13.840
i can think is perhaps you know if an officer's

00:39:13.840 --> 00:39:17.929
given a you know a really detailed sighting and

00:39:17.929 --> 00:39:20.989
it's quite incredible. Perhaps that officer then,

00:39:21.130 --> 00:39:24.289
who's done it publicly, goes to court in a month's

00:39:24.289 --> 00:39:27.409
time or two months and he gives a witness, you

00:39:27.409 --> 00:39:31.409
know, gives testimony as a witness in the witness

00:39:31.409 --> 00:39:35.289
box and then perhaps the defence say, isn't it

00:39:35.289 --> 00:39:38.349
true officer, you've seen UFOs? Have you been

00:39:38.349 --> 00:39:39.650
to the doctor? Have you taken any medication?

00:39:40.570 --> 00:39:43.369
And you're trying to cast doubt on the credibility

00:39:43.369 --> 00:39:47.320
of... of a witness um which probably wouldn't

00:39:47.320 --> 00:39:49.739
help you know it's anything to sling some mud

00:39:49.739 --> 00:39:53.940
at a cop who's giving evidence and also i mean

00:39:53.940 --> 00:39:55.539
the officers themselves are thinking well if

00:39:55.539 --> 00:39:57.619
they want to specialize and go on sort of a firearms

00:39:57.619 --> 00:40:01.000
department or surveillance or you know one of

00:40:01.000 --> 00:40:05.260
the gucci departments um it isn't going to help

00:40:05.260 --> 00:40:08.219
them when If the people who are interviewing

00:40:08.219 --> 00:40:09.840
them think, hold on a minute, is this the guy

00:40:09.840 --> 00:40:13.099
that said he saw a huge triangular UFO in Wales

00:40:13.099 --> 00:40:15.280
and he was adamant and he said it was non -human

00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:17.880
tech and blah, blah, blah. Is that going to help

00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:19.880
them get onto that specialised department? I

00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:22.639
don't think it is. And as I say, it just draws

00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:24.860
attention probably on the police in a way that

00:40:24.860 --> 00:40:27.079
they perhaps would not like. They would prefer

00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:29.039
it not. I don't think they're going to go out

00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:32.559
of their way to stop it. And if they tried, well,

00:40:32.699 --> 00:40:38.889
tough luck. It's done now, isn't it? Sometimes

00:40:38.889 --> 00:40:41.730
I can't answer for the mindset of senior people

00:40:41.730 --> 00:40:44.269
in the organisation, but I know they would probably

00:40:44.269 --> 00:40:48.010
prefer if it wasn't done. Yes, I get that. You

00:40:48.010 --> 00:40:49.929
know, the press will always go after the police

00:40:49.929 --> 00:40:52.050
for any little things. You just know stuff like

00:40:52.050 --> 00:40:53.489
this, they will always jump on. The trouble is

00:40:53.489 --> 00:40:58.110
with the police, because we tell people what

00:40:58.110 --> 00:41:00.909
to do when they don't want to do them. Sometimes

00:41:00.909 --> 00:41:02.869
we're the bad guys. I mean, one minute we're

00:41:02.869 --> 00:41:04.489
a hero, the next we're the villain, aren't we,

00:41:04.530 --> 00:41:07.809
to steal the Batman quote from the film. Whereas

00:41:07.809 --> 00:41:10.250
you've got firefighters who I've got the utmost

00:41:10.250 --> 00:41:13.989
respect for and the NHS. So the other two arms

00:41:13.989 --> 00:41:16.610
of the emergency services, while they're always

00:41:16.610 --> 00:41:18.530
continuously helping people, they're never arresting

00:41:18.530 --> 00:41:20.510
them and putting them in jail. So we have to

00:41:20.510 --> 00:41:22.530
do both. We're good guys the one day and bad

00:41:22.530 --> 00:41:24.750
guys the next. And I don't know what happened

00:41:24.750 --> 00:41:28.260
over the last five years, especially where. We're

00:41:28.260 --> 00:41:30.900
just vilified in the police, in the press now,

00:41:30.980 --> 00:41:33.519
constantly. And it's really, really frustrating.

00:41:33.719 --> 00:41:35.260
One day you're the hero, the next you're the

00:41:35.260 --> 00:41:37.440
bad guys. And I remember with the Manchester

00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.219
thing where the officers were assaulted by the

00:41:40.219 --> 00:41:42.360
two people at Manchester. And this is terrible

00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.059
assaulting police officers and X, Y, Z. And then

00:41:45.059 --> 00:41:46.559
on the next page, you'll turn it over in the

00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:48.260
newspaper and it'll be, you know, all police

00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:49.659
are this and you can't trust them. And you're

00:41:49.659 --> 00:41:54.260
like, well, which one is it? You know? Anyway,

00:41:54.360 --> 00:41:58.860
I guess that's a story for another day. So one

00:41:58.860 --> 00:42:01.360
of the stories, if we can go forward in the book

00:42:01.360 --> 00:42:07.800
before we go back, there is an account where

00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:14.739
somebody who's on the helicopter service, they

00:42:14.739 --> 00:42:17.300
witness something and they get told that they're

00:42:17.300 --> 00:42:20.119
never going to work on the helicopters again.

00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:24.619
Would you like to sort of cover off some of that

00:42:24.619 --> 00:42:27.179
sort of? side of where it has been career limiting

00:42:27.179 --> 00:42:29.059
where they've come to you with their experience

00:42:29.059 --> 00:42:36.440
yeah so the guy um so the guy that was um William

00:42:36.440 --> 00:42:39.239
Humphrey Bishop and I'll get to him in a minute

00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:41.280
because I didn't interview William Humphrey Bishop

00:42:41.280 --> 00:42:43.619
that was a guy called John Anson another ex -police

00:42:43.619 --> 00:42:46.239
officer brilliant UFO investigator so quite rightly

00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:48.420
I want to If I've not interviewed someone, I

00:42:48.420 --> 00:42:50.559
want to give the source. But before we get to

00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:52.639
him, I'll tell you about an account that is directly

00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:54.940
linked to it. You'll see when I explain it. So

00:42:54.940 --> 00:43:00.340
if I go to July the 5th, 1997, you've got a PC

00:43:00.340 --> 00:43:04.780
Hammond, Paul Hammond, and he's on the ASU, the

00:43:04.780 --> 00:43:07.460
Air Support Unit. And he's on a helicopter with

00:43:07.460 --> 00:43:09.360
a warrant officer first class from the military,

00:43:09.579 --> 00:43:13.199
a guy called David Frampton. And there's like

00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:15.659
a joint army police operation. They're both on

00:43:15.659 --> 00:43:17.420
the helicopter with the pilot and they're above

00:43:17.420 --> 00:43:20.239
a massive parade just near to the MI6 building.

00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:22.619
And they're above there purely for a public safety

00:43:22.619 --> 00:43:24.940
point of view. So if any disorder breaks out,

00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:27.559
they can summon in the ground troops. And as

00:43:27.559 --> 00:43:29.340
they bent the helicopter over to the left, that's

00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:32.380
when they all see it. And what it was, was according

00:43:32.380 --> 00:43:35.659
to them, was like a big, long 40, 50 foot long

00:43:35.659 --> 00:43:38.630
paper dart. on its side, a bit like you might

00:43:38.630 --> 00:43:41.170
make in a classroom as a kid. And they're thinking,

00:43:41.230 --> 00:43:43.369
what the hell is this? It's a metallic structured

00:43:43.369 --> 00:43:46.449
craft. So they jump onto Heathrow and say, hey,

00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:49.329
this is a no -fly zone. What have you got up

00:43:49.329 --> 00:43:52.630
here? And what is this thing? And Heathrow said,

00:43:52.730 --> 00:43:54.789
there's nothing up there. You're on your own.

00:43:54.829 --> 00:43:57.889
So that gets the heart racing because they can

00:43:57.889 --> 00:44:00.449
see it. So they start circling this object in

00:44:00.449 --> 00:44:03.369
the sky and they do it nose on, a bit like a

00:44:03.369 --> 00:44:06.309
gunfighter might circle. another opponent before

00:44:06.309 --> 00:44:09.530
drawing in a western or like a predator circling

00:44:09.530 --> 00:44:12.929
its prey you know in the jungle and they can't

00:44:12.929 --> 00:44:14.550
work out what this is so they start looking at

00:44:14.550 --> 00:44:16.150
it through the floor the forward looking infrared

00:44:16.150 --> 00:44:21.449
and david hammond um then says that on the infrared

00:44:21.449 --> 00:44:24.929
the back of the object started to heat up part

00:44:24.929 --> 00:44:27.110
of it went up at a right angle this was confirmed

00:44:27.110 --> 00:44:29.230
by david frampton so we've got corroborating

00:44:29.230 --> 00:44:32.469
witness here uh witnesses here chaps At which

00:44:32.469 --> 00:44:34.250
point this craft, and this is the incredible

00:44:34.250 --> 00:44:36.449
part, and I'll just say, as the officer said,

00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:38.989
this craft has shot forward about 30, 40 feet

00:44:38.989 --> 00:44:43.489
into a hole that sort of appeared in the sky,

00:44:43.550 --> 00:44:46.570
went into the hole and the hole closed up or

00:44:46.570 --> 00:44:48.530
zipped up behind it. And this thing was gone.

00:44:48.829 --> 00:44:52.269
And that is almost like akin to some interdimensional

00:44:52.269 --> 00:44:54.610
type craft like technology. Now, there was quite

00:44:54.610 --> 00:44:56.130
the talk, as you can imagine, on the helicopter

00:44:56.130 --> 00:44:58.789
on the way back to Lippitz Hill, where they were

00:44:58.789 --> 00:45:02.329
based. When they landed, David Frampton, the

00:45:02.329 --> 00:45:04.510
army warrant officer first class, went into a

00:45:04.510 --> 00:45:06.030
room on his own and he wasn't privy to the rest

00:45:06.030 --> 00:45:09.309
of the conversation between the pilot and Paul

00:45:09.309 --> 00:45:11.829
Hammond and another officer who I can't name

00:45:11.829 --> 00:45:15.710
because he doesn't want me to. And they all decided

00:45:15.710 --> 00:45:18.010
after viewing the footage that they would just

00:45:18.010 --> 00:45:21.219
let the footage be taped over and gone. because

00:45:21.219 --> 00:45:23.280
they were so concerned that it would see the

00:45:23.280 --> 00:45:25.139
end of their careers and their jobs and they'd

00:45:25.139 --> 00:45:28.699
be stigmatized now the reason they thought this

00:45:28.699 --> 00:45:33.019
and this is going on to the case of william humphrey

00:45:33.019 --> 00:45:35.920
bishop is because 18 years before in the same

00:45:35.920 --> 00:45:39.599
airspace william humphrey bishop was in a helicopter

00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:43.400
that was engaged in an aerial pursuit of a barrel

00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:47.590
-shaped ufo and He was told to come back to base

00:45:47.590 --> 00:45:49.409
because his radio wasn't working. It was just

00:45:49.409 --> 00:45:52.389
an excuse to get him back and stop the pilot

00:45:52.389 --> 00:45:53.829
in the helicopter chasing this barrel -shaped

00:45:53.829 --> 00:45:56.590
UFO, which then shot off up into the sky after

00:45:56.590 --> 00:45:59.070
five or six minutes. Now, William Humphrey Bishop

00:45:59.070 --> 00:46:01.510
was grounded and told he'd be off the air support

00:46:01.510 --> 00:46:04.989
unit, and that was him gone. The next day, the

00:46:04.989 --> 00:46:07.090
RAF wanted to interview him, and he was taken

00:46:07.090 --> 00:46:11.670
to an address in Croydon, and he was interviewed.

00:46:12.269 --> 00:46:13.789
And he said, well, this has caused me enough

00:46:13.789 --> 00:46:15.429
trouble. I'm off the unit. They said, don't worry

00:46:15.429 --> 00:46:19.110
about that. You'll be back on the unit. The deal

00:46:19.110 --> 00:46:20.489
was, give us a statement, we'll get you back

00:46:20.489 --> 00:46:23.130
on. And when he gave the statement, would you

00:46:23.130 --> 00:46:24.929
believe he was reinstated the next day? Obviously,

00:46:24.949 --> 00:46:26.469
there's been some pressure from military high

00:46:26.469 --> 00:46:28.730
ranks to police high ranks to get him his job

00:46:28.730 --> 00:46:31.010
back because they want the statement and all

00:46:31.010 --> 00:46:33.989
that off him. And as he leaves the house, he

00:46:33.989 --> 00:46:35.809
turns around to what he believes is a squadron

00:46:35.809 --> 00:46:37.559
leader and says... You know, what did I see?

00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:39.099
What was the barrel object? And he said, well,

00:46:39.139 --> 00:46:41.860
we believe it was a probe. And because there

00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:43.420
were two of them, there were two probes. And

00:46:43.420 --> 00:46:45.780
we believe it was from a much, much larger craft

00:46:45.780 --> 00:46:51.960
higher up. Now, he was ridiculed for 18 years

00:46:51.960 --> 00:46:55.380
on the air support unit because he came out and

00:46:55.380 --> 00:46:59.219
said, I saw these barrel shaped UFOs. So 18 years

00:46:59.219 --> 00:47:01.760
ahead, when you've got Paul Hammond, the guy

00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:04.900
I interviewed and David Frampton. And the pilot,

00:47:04.920 --> 00:47:06.860
none of them wanted that because they'd seen

00:47:06.860 --> 00:47:11.900
Paul, you know, William Humphrey Bishop ridiculed

00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:14.519
and they just didn't want it. And I understand

00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:18.179
why. So two fantastic airborne sightings over

00:47:18.179 --> 00:47:20.579
London airspace within 18 years of each other.

00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:24.480
The first one ridiculed the officer. And so the

00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:27.960
others, 18 years later, kept shtum and told no

00:47:27.960 --> 00:47:30.340
one. And it's sad that it comes to things like

00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:37.730
that. Definitely. Just to point out as well that

00:47:37.730 --> 00:47:42.070
W01 Frampton was a glider pilot. So this is a

00:47:42.070 --> 00:47:45.750
guy who knew his stuff. And Paul Hammond had

00:47:45.750 --> 00:47:48.130
been on the air support unit for 17 years at

00:47:48.130 --> 00:47:49.690
the time. He'd been involved in thousands of

00:47:49.690 --> 00:47:51.489
police missions. He'd even survived two helicopter

00:47:51.489 --> 00:47:53.250
crashes. So when you've got two people of that

00:47:53.250 --> 00:47:58.429
calibre saying what we saw probably wasn't made

00:47:58.429 --> 00:48:03.050
by us, you've got to kind of... maybe believe

00:48:03.050 --> 00:48:05.769
them a little bit or certainly at least ask some

00:48:05.769 --> 00:48:09.610
more questions definitely that's i mean that's

00:48:09.610 --> 00:48:12.949
fascinating um it's really sort of if you had

00:48:12.949 --> 00:48:16.889
to say one case that you've investigated uh been

00:48:16.889 --> 00:48:21.349
told so it was like everyone on the table wanted

00:48:21.349 --> 00:48:24.170
to convince me with one one case one incident

00:48:24.170 --> 00:48:27.690
is there a particular one that you kind of would

00:48:27.690 --> 00:48:30.369
go to for that i mean do you know one of the

00:48:30.369 --> 00:48:34.389
most intriguing i've had um was one of the last

00:48:34.389 --> 00:48:37.869
ones told me which i the book had already been

00:48:37.869 --> 00:48:40.170
completed the manuscript and i ended up ringing

00:48:40.170 --> 00:48:43.530
up um mirror books who very kindly had some faith

00:48:43.530 --> 00:48:45.389
in me but believed in me and published the book

00:48:45.389 --> 00:48:48.110
but i said hey there's one more i've got to put

00:48:48.110 --> 00:48:50.769
this in and they did bless them and that was

00:48:50.769 --> 00:48:53.010
the case of officer f and he's called officer

00:48:53.010 --> 00:48:55.570
f because he's elected to go anonymous and you'll

00:48:55.570 --> 00:48:57.949
see why when i tell you what happened to him

00:48:57.949 --> 00:49:01.590
so he was on duty It was 2am in the morning and

00:49:01.590 --> 00:49:05.710
he was outside Ardoyne Police Station. Now at

00:49:05.710 --> 00:49:07.409
the time that was Grampian Police, it's now Police

00:49:07.409 --> 00:49:09.429
Scotland because the seven forces up there emerged

00:49:09.429 --> 00:49:12.369
to become Police Scotland. And there's another

00:49:12.369 --> 00:49:14.250
officer with him and a call comes on the car

00:49:14.250 --> 00:49:17.610
radio saying, we've had numerous reports of something

00:49:17.610 --> 00:49:19.269
strange in the sky coming from the direction

00:49:19.269 --> 00:49:22.570
of Aberdeen in the east. Can you have a look

00:49:22.570 --> 00:49:24.050
in the sky and tell us if you can see anything?

00:49:24.619 --> 00:49:27.340
So he says, yes, no problem. And he's looking

00:49:27.340 --> 00:49:30.559
and he then notices coming towards him. He doesn't

00:49:30.559 --> 00:49:33.280
see an object in the sky. He notices what he

00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.440
calls a rolling power cut coming towards him.

00:49:35.460 --> 00:49:37.579
So all the streetlights are going out. And then

00:49:37.579 --> 00:49:39.659
the houses that do have lights on at two in the

00:49:39.659 --> 00:49:41.340
morning, they're going off as well. So it's like

00:49:41.340 --> 00:49:43.340
a power cut creeping towards him. Eventually,

00:49:43.380 --> 00:49:45.539
the streetlights go off right up to his car,

00:49:45.579 --> 00:49:47.239
then the streetlight right by his car, then his

00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:49.659
car goes dead. And it's at that point he and

00:49:49.659 --> 00:49:52.000
the other officer look up. flying over the heads

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.440
or gliding as he said it was in no hurry it was

00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:59.400
a huge matte black flying triangle and this has

00:49:59.400 --> 00:50:00.860
just gone over the head it's gone off towards

00:50:00.860 --> 00:50:04.619
the east towards a town called balatar and it

00:50:04.619 --> 00:50:07.019
was lost to the blackness of the sky but they

00:50:07.019 --> 00:50:09.000
knew where it was because you could see all the

00:50:09.000 --> 00:50:10.699
houses and street lights going off in the distance

00:50:10.699 --> 00:50:13.239
so they they could work out what it was but of

00:50:13.239 --> 00:50:15.179
course as it's flying further away the lights

00:50:15.179 --> 00:50:18.320
are coming on back near them again then the police

00:50:18.320 --> 00:50:20.599
car dash lights come back on so he jumps back

00:50:20.599 --> 00:50:23.000
in the car grabs the mic and he says hey you're

00:50:23.000 --> 00:50:24.280
not going to believe it but whatever that was

00:50:24.280 --> 00:50:26.739
it's just flowing over our heads and the operator

00:50:26.739 --> 00:50:30.239
the radio dispatcher says to him you know where

00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:31.960
have you been we've been trying to get hold of

00:50:31.960 --> 00:50:34.099
you for over 30 minutes now he said to me it

00:50:34.099 --> 00:50:37.099
was no more than 30 seconds he doesn't remember

00:50:37.099 --> 00:50:39.000
being abducted or anything like that he's really

00:50:39.000 --> 00:50:41.360
keen to stress that so perhaps maybe time moves

00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.300
slower or faster in the presence of these things

00:50:43.300 --> 00:50:48.219
but it doesn't end there because last year he's

00:50:48.219 --> 00:50:50.480
suffered headaches from them so he's gone to

00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.739
a consultant and he's had an MRI and detected

00:50:53.739 --> 00:50:56.500
on an MRI behind his right eye some sort of metal

00:50:56.500 --> 00:50:59.179
very small cylindrical object now remember gents

00:50:59.179 --> 00:51:00.239
we know where we're going with this we're thinking

00:51:00.239 --> 00:51:01.780
about an implant because that's what we're on

00:51:01.780 --> 00:51:03.920
this type of show for and the people listening

00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:05.139
will be thinking the same thing because they'll

00:51:05.139 --> 00:51:08.300
be well versed in sort of UFO stories and UAP

00:51:08.300 --> 00:51:11.260
you know supposed technology and tracking devices

00:51:11.260 --> 00:51:14.539
so He was thinking, well, is this some sort of

00:51:14.539 --> 00:51:16.800
tracking device? But then he thinks, no, I remember

00:51:16.800 --> 00:51:19.179
having a coal fight with my sister. So they were

00:51:19.179 --> 00:51:20.719
throwing lumps of coals at each other when they

00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:23.179
were kids, as you do. And one of them struck

00:51:23.179 --> 00:51:25.119
him near the right eye. And he always thought

00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:27.019
that's why he had a very small scar by his right

00:51:27.019 --> 00:51:29.260
eye. So he spoke to his sister. And you're never

00:51:29.260 --> 00:51:30.559
going to believe what, you know, that scar by

00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:33.579
my right eye. The doctor says that, you know,

00:51:33.579 --> 00:51:36.480
he says that behind that is like a metal sort

00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:38.699
of object. And I always thought it was from the

00:51:38.699 --> 00:51:40.960
coal fight we'd had. the scar was there and and

00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:42.860
i thought maybe it's a piece of coal behind my

00:51:42.860 --> 00:51:45.840
eye and uh she said well what coal fight and

00:51:45.840 --> 00:51:47.780
he said well the coal fight when we were kids

00:51:47.780 --> 00:51:49.940
i don't know what you're talking about and he

00:51:49.940 --> 00:51:52.400
said well we've spoken about it numerous times

00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:54.420
over the years it's been the point of a you know

00:51:54.420 --> 00:51:57.239
a family discussion and a bit of a laugh and

00:51:57.239 --> 00:51:58.260
she said i don't know what you're talking about

00:51:58.260 --> 00:52:01.179
we've never spoken about it so he believes that

00:52:01.179 --> 00:52:04.000
the memory of the coal fight has been implanted

00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.219
into him and the subsequent memories of the discussions

00:52:07.219 --> 00:52:10.780
of the coal fight have also been um put into

00:52:10.780 --> 00:52:13.579
his mind and because he's thought about it so

00:52:13.579 --> 00:52:16.559
much if you think about something gents it can

00:52:16.559 --> 00:52:18.880
unlock other memories that unlock other memories

00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.619
and he said a real good thing uh over the and

00:52:21.619 --> 00:52:24.139
he remembers incidents from when he was a kid

00:52:24.139 --> 00:52:27.099
up until only last year as well waking up with

00:52:27.099 --> 00:52:31.239
small like people around his bed he doesn't remember

00:52:31.239 --> 00:52:33.619
being on a table examination table but he's saying

00:52:33.619 --> 00:52:36.159
he's on his bed with these four or five or six

00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:40.090
small people or whatever they are around his

00:52:40.090 --> 00:52:42.170
bed but it's so hazy and he can't move so he

00:52:42.170 --> 00:52:44.690
can't look at them so obviously bearing in mind

00:52:44.690 --> 00:52:48.690
what he saw this thing behind his eye these false

00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:53.730
memory implants those memories of a kid right

00:52:53.730 --> 00:52:56.530
up until present day and he's an adult if you

00:52:56.530 --> 00:52:59.550
put all those things together the aggregation

00:52:59.550 --> 00:53:01.349
of marginal gains i think that's almost like

00:53:01.349 --> 00:53:05.219
a classic sort of potential abduction case or

00:53:05.219 --> 00:53:07.579
an abductee but the incredible thing is about

00:53:07.579 --> 00:53:11.699
this um that's a serving police officer so um

00:53:11.699 --> 00:53:14.000
there's only two i interviewed at the 250 that

00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:15.619
believe that there's a possibility they've been

00:53:15.619 --> 00:53:18.820
abducted but i think it's a really intriguing

00:53:18.820 --> 00:53:21.360
account it's going to be really difficult to

00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:23.280
get to the bottom of it unless he has surgery

00:53:23.280 --> 00:53:25.139
and after this thing removed from behind his

00:53:25.139 --> 00:53:28.099
eye but as it's not affecting his vision, that

00:53:28.099 --> 00:53:30.260
will cause vision complications. So they've elected

00:53:30.260 --> 00:53:32.860
just to leave it there. So I mentioned hypnotic

00:53:32.860 --> 00:53:34.679
regression to him, but he's not quite keen on

00:53:34.679 --> 00:53:36.659
that. I think he's of the opinion some things

00:53:36.659 --> 00:53:39.900
are better left unknown about. But that one really,

00:53:40.039 --> 00:53:45.960
really does stick in my mind. You're on mute,

00:53:46.019 --> 00:53:51.460
Greg. That is a fascinating one. It is, isn't

00:53:51.460 --> 00:53:56.760
it? It is. And it's one that... I I've been listening

00:53:56.760 --> 00:54:02.039
to the audio book of your your book a new book

00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.199
because the audio version came out on Thursday

00:54:04.199 --> 00:54:08.300
and did yeah so I've been everywhere I've been

00:54:08.300 --> 00:54:10.159
driving for the last couple of days I've been

00:54:10.159 --> 00:54:11.739
up and down the country and I've been listening

00:54:11.739 --> 00:54:15.420
to to the audio book and that is one of the the

00:54:15.420 --> 00:54:20.639
stories that really resonated with me that why

00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:26.039
as a serving police officer Would you make all

00:54:26.039 --> 00:54:30.980
that up? I know he's anonymous, and that's fine,

00:54:31.099 --> 00:54:34.119
and I get why. Like you mentioned, it is understandable

00:54:34.119 --> 00:54:36.619
why you would not want your name associated with

00:54:36.619 --> 00:54:42.760
that for fear of public reaction. But you do

00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:45.760
have to question why would you make that up?

00:54:45.880 --> 00:54:48.159
What are you gaining? You're actually losing

00:54:48.159 --> 00:54:52.579
everything as a result of coming forward. Yeah,

00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:55.960
he and he's retired now, but he still doesn't

00:54:55.960 --> 00:55:00.039
want to. I totally understand it. Because even

00:55:00.039 --> 00:55:03.239
after retirement, you know, people are going

00:55:03.239 --> 00:55:05.300
to go, oh, is that the guy who? Yeah, that's

00:55:05.300 --> 00:55:07.920
the guy. And he just doesn't want that. So I

00:55:07.920 --> 00:55:10.860
will settle for an anonymous account. I mean,

00:55:10.880 --> 00:55:12.960
don't get me wrong, I know the guy's name. So

00:55:12.960 --> 00:55:15.719
the 250 I interviewed, I think there were about

00:55:15.719 --> 00:55:22.089
nine or 10 that elected to go anonymous. And

00:55:22.089 --> 00:55:24.309
initially there were quite a few more, but I

00:55:24.309 --> 00:55:26.730
persuaded them and said, look, come on, you know,

00:55:26.769 --> 00:55:29.150
it sounds a lot more credible when you give a

00:55:29.150 --> 00:55:31.730
name because there's always, you know, people

00:55:31.730 --> 00:55:33.670
could say, oh, you know, Inspector, you're just

00:55:33.670 --> 00:55:35.309
making up these things. There's no Officer A,

00:55:35.369 --> 00:55:38.230
B, C, D, E. But hopefully people think there's

00:55:38.230 --> 00:55:40.269
a bit more about me than that. But I can assure

00:55:40.269 --> 00:55:43.090
you that these people do exist. I know them all

00:55:43.090 --> 00:55:46.809
by name. uh perhaps in the future if the book

00:55:46.809 --> 00:55:50.269
is um because sometimes they do like a a reprint

00:55:50.269 --> 00:55:52.809
don't they maybe i can get him to adjust the

00:55:52.809 --> 00:55:55.150
name and uh and all the rest of it and give his

00:55:55.150 --> 00:55:59.929
name but uh we will see another thing that fascinated

00:55:59.929 --> 00:56:04.250
me in the book is that some police officers not

00:56:04.250 --> 00:56:09.769
only had one experience but there was a particular

00:56:09.769 --> 00:56:14.789
uh account where they had two the same day and

00:56:14.789 --> 00:56:19.510
they'd not had one before and there was um was

00:56:19.510 --> 00:56:21.449
it uh i think they might have been a special

00:56:21.449 --> 00:56:28.309
and um it was bear with me because i i was trying

00:56:28.309 --> 00:56:30.630
to get through the book so we know it's okay

00:56:30.630 --> 00:56:32.289
i make the special constables pretty probably

00:56:32.289 --> 00:56:35.570
referring to uh special inspector it might be

00:56:35.570 --> 00:56:37.449
john clayton who had an outer body near -death

00:56:37.449 --> 00:56:41.949
experience and then he saw uh hotel ufo well

00:56:41.949 --> 00:56:45.639
it might be Now you say that bit. There was also

00:56:45.639 --> 00:56:50.480
the father and son in the police force. I think

00:56:50.480 --> 00:56:53.900
one was older. The son had had an experience.

00:56:54.219 --> 00:57:00.619
Yeah, that's Inspector Siggers and his son, Mr

00:57:00.619 --> 00:57:03.260
Siggers, who ironically is a PCSO. I think they

00:57:03.260 --> 00:57:07.400
were in Hertfordshire Police. Yeah, I mean, that

00:57:07.400 --> 00:57:12.670
was quite a funny story. Now, of course... I

00:57:12.670 --> 00:57:14.949
haven't got any notes in front of me, so I can

00:57:14.949 --> 00:57:18.110
relay that as best I can. So that's the father,

00:57:18.269 --> 00:57:23.230
Mr. Siggers. It was many years ago and he is

00:57:23.230 --> 00:57:25.909
walking the dog and he looks up and he sees these

00:57:25.909 --> 00:57:29.610
lights bouncing back and forward in the sky,

00:57:29.809 --> 00:57:32.429
going back and forward towards each other at

00:57:32.429 --> 00:57:35.489
ridiculous speeds. But they're also travelling

00:57:35.489 --> 00:57:40.920
across the sky. He thinks that's not normal.

00:57:41.000 --> 00:57:43.679
He said it's absolutely not lasers. And he believed

00:57:43.679 --> 00:57:48.079
he was seeing something maybe otherworldly. He

00:57:48.079 --> 00:57:50.539
remains open minded and he's not far from the

00:57:50.539 --> 00:57:52.599
house. So he runs into the house, at which point

00:57:52.599 --> 00:57:57.320
Inspector Siggers is there, albeit he's off duty.

00:57:58.639 --> 00:58:00.820
And he goes, get in the back garden, get in the

00:58:00.820 --> 00:58:03.360
back garden, look in the sky. So they all run

00:58:03.360 --> 00:58:05.199
in the back garden. And of course, they look

00:58:05.199 --> 00:58:09.289
up and see nothing. And the lights have gone.

00:58:09.989 --> 00:58:14.250
So for six or seven years, his own son used to,

00:58:14.250 --> 00:58:17.510
you know, have a bit of fun and, you know, have

00:58:17.510 --> 00:58:19.570
a bit of fun at him and all the rest of it. But

00:58:19.570 --> 00:58:22.769
seven years later, they're both outside walking

00:58:22.769 --> 00:58:25.829
the dog. And he says, Dad, you know those lights

00:58:25.829 --> 00:58:28.389
that you saw? And they were doing this, this

00:58:28.389 --> 00:58:30.090
and this and this. And his dad's like, yeah.

00:58:30.170 --> 00:58:34.650
And he went, look up. And they were up there.

00:58:35.190 --> 00:58:38.920
So he knew seven years later. what his son had

00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:41.619
seen was genuine and they're watching these lights

00:58:41.619 --> 00:58:44.920
so it so imagine they're in the circumference

00:58:44.920 --> 00:58:48.219
of like a petri dish so they're like going from

00:58:48.219 --> 00:58:50.179
the center to the edge and back all at different

00:58:50.179 --> 00:58:52.519
speeds and ridiculous speeds and time so you

00:58:52.519 --> 00:58:55.179
think i'm thinking lasers and he's saying no

00:58:55.179 --> 00:58:58.800
no these things weren't lasers because you could

00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:00.880
see like they were high up in the sky there's

00:59:00.880 --> 00:59:03.260
occasional cloud and lasers hit the cloud and

00:59:03.260 --> 00:59:05.659
back he said it wasn't And as they're watching

00:59:05.659 --> 00:59:07.860
it, so this is the second time the dad has seen

00:59:07.860 --> 00:59:09.739
it, but the first time the son has seen it, within

00:59:09.739 --> 00:59:11.760
a couple of seconds, these things have all shot

00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:16.199
off across the sky at insane speed and out of

00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:20.400
sight. And it was at that point that the dad

00:59:20.400 --> 00:59:22.900
realised why, when he ran through the house seven

00:59:22.900 --> 00:59:24.480
years before and went, get outside, get outside,

00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:28.059
look up in the sky, these things had gone because

00:59:28.059 --> 00:59:30.320
they'd obviously done the same seven years before.

00:59:31.199 --> 00:59:33.840
So, yeah. But a fascinating account, father and

00:59:33.840 --> 00:59:35.500
son from Hertfordshire, one an inspector and

00:59:35.500 --> 00:59:39.059
one a police community support officer. Have

00:59:39.059 --> 00:59:41.320
you noticed any correlation in these sightings

00:59:41.320 --> 00:59:45.400
of sort of areas that seem to have more than

00:59:45.400 --> 00:59:48.679
others at all? Though it's quite a small sample

00:59:48.679 --> 00:59:50.920
size, 250 is not... Yeah, I mean, there's no

00:59:50.920 --> 00:59:52.940
pattern or anything. I mean, some are saucer

00:59:52.940 --> 00:59:56.840
-shaped, cube -shaped, cigar -shaped, triangular

00:59:56.840 --> 01:00:01.519
-shaped. For me, I haven't noticed any... patterns

01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:03.920
but that's probably because there's a ton of

01:00:03.920 --> 01:00:06.199
probably police sightings out there that i don't

01:00:06.199 --> 01:00:08.400
know about and no one's contacted me maybe the

01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:10.539
appeals missed them or they just don't want to

01:00:10.539 --> 01:00:12.320
speak to me about them for whatever reason but

01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:16.780
um i seem to get I had a few from West Yorkshire

01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:19.400
and a lot of that I maybe put down to the fact

01:00:19.400 --> 01:00:21.440
that there's a lot less light pollution up there

01:00:21.440 --> 01:00:24.719
and a lot more open areas of fields and countryside.

01:00:24.880 --> 01:00:26.980
So if there is something up there, it would be

01:00:26.980 --> 01:00:29.119
seen more easily. Whereas if it's seen above

01:00:29.119 --> 01:00:30.719
the skies of Birmingham, you just put it down

01:00:30.719 --> 01:00:33.579
to a plane, even if it isn't. And there's a lot

01:00:33.579 --> 01:00:36.639
more air traffic up there. So yeah, West Yorkshire,

01:00:36.659 --> 01:00:39.260
quite a few, but no patterns. It's very difficult.

01:00:39.659 --> 01:00:43.059
Yeah. I mean, that tracks because Yorkshire is,

01:00:44.119 --> 01:00:47.079
My database is like 6 ,000 deep at this point.

01:00:47.340 --> 01:00:50.980
That's for all sightings. And Yorkshire is always

01:00:50.980 --> 01:00:53.820
up there in terms of sightings. That's quite

01:00:53.820 --> 01:00:56.119
interesting. So would you hold... So kind of

01:00:56.119 --> 01:00:58.039
these, kind of what you call professional witness.

01:00:58.480 --> 01:01:01.579
So police officers, pilots, military people.

01:01:02.039 --> 01:01:05.440
Do you think that sort of statements and sightings

01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:08.400
from them are worth more than kind of average

01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:10.800
show? I think that because of the virtue of the

01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:14.590
training that... When you're watching something,

01:01:14.829 --> 01:01:19.889
you automatically, whether you know you're doing

01:01:19.889 --> 01:01:22.750
it or not in the police, because of your training

01:01:22.750 --> 01:01:25.010
and your experience, you start, you're collating

01:01:25.010 --> 01:01:27.489
things even without even realising. So, you know,

01:01:27.510 --> 01:01:29.650
for example, if I go and, you know, I'm going

01:01:29.650 --> 01:01:31.769
to an incident, if I see someone suspecting,

01:01:31.769 --> 01:01:35.289
the first thing I think is A to H, A to H, build.

01:01:35.960 --> 01:01:39.400
the colour, you know, distinguishing marks, the

01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:42.940
elevation, how tall were they, basically, the

01:01:42.940 --> 01:01:45.719
face, you know, any piercings, the gait, how

01:01:45.719 --> 01:01:49.480
did they walk, what was their height, any individual

01:01:49.480 --> 01:01:52.920
marks on them, tattoos, any jewellery, you know,

01:01:53.019 --> 01:01:55.659
stuff, you're automatically thinking stuff like

01:01:55.659 --> 01:01:59.059
that, and you're always thinking, there's a thing

01:01:59.059 --> 01:02:01.300
we were criticised back in the, I think it was

01:02:01.300 --> 01:02:03.800
the late 70s, early 80s, by a judge, but he didn't

01:02:03.800 --> 01:02:05.610
give some very good statements, you know. in

01:02:05.610 --> 01:02:08.909
a case at court called um rv turnbull and the

01:02:08.909 --> 01:02:11.289
judge criticized us quite rightly so and as a

01:02:11.289 --> 01:02:13.130
result of that we looked into how we do statements

01:02:13.130 --> 01:02:17.130
so we created um so there's the word advocate

01:02:17.130 --> 01:02:19.769
and in all police statements you the advocate

01:02:19.769 --> 01:02:22.840
is a big part of it so amount of time to observation

01:02:22.840 --> 01:02:25.659
what distance were you from the subject or craft

01:02:25.659 --> 01:02:27.599
in the sky what was the visibility like were

01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:29.880
there any obstructions have you ever known or

01:02:29.880 --> 01:02:31.960
seen that person or that craft before so when

01:02:31.960 --> 01:02:33.860
we're talking about ufos uops you think about

01:02:33.860 --> 01:02:35.320
the hitchhiker theory because some people have

01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:37.739
seen them several times because they you know

01:02:37.739 --> 01:02:39.739
according to some and i do think there is something

01:02:39.739 --> 01:02:42.300
to be said for this once you've seen one they

01:02:42.300 --> 01:02:44.219
know and they're more inclined to let you see

01:02:44.219 --> 01:02:46.579
it again or they've chosen you specifically for

01:02:46.579 --> 01:02:50.880
whatever reason um you know so automatically

01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:53.079
that is going from an officer's mind a lot more.

01:02:53.579 --> 01:02:56.619
And if it comes to people like pilots, pilots

01:02:56.619 --> 01:02:58.079
are going to understand a lot more, I guess,

01:02:58.079 --> 01:03:05.019
than police officers, what craft can do or can't

01:03:05.019 --> 01:03:09.659
do. So I think purely by virtue of training and

01:03:09.659 --> 01:03:11.320
experience, they do make better witnesses. But

01:03:11.320 --> 01:03:14.579
what I will say and stipulate is just because

01:03:14.579 --> 01:03:17.860
I've created police officer accounts. It doesn't

01:03:17.860 --> 01:03:20.159
mean that their accounts are any more important

01:03:20.159 --> 01:03:22.579
than anyone else's. I've just chosen that because

01:03:22.579 --> 01:03:24.519
I know that the officers will open up to me.

01:03:24.619 --> 01:03:28.300
But so they might give better statements, but

01:03:28.300 --> 01:03:30.420
it doesn't mean that their statements are any

01:03:30.420 --> 01:03:32.800
more important than anybody else's in any other

01:03:32.800 --> 01:03:40.659
job whatsoever. So, you know, I sort of. I've

01:03:40.659 --> 01:03:43.440
expanded my criteria. So I've gone from just

01:03:43.440 --> 01:03:46.960
police officers now to the NHS, the fire service,

01:03:47.119 --> 01:03:50.119
the other emergency services, the military. But

01:03:50.119 --> 01:03:52.780
I will speak to anybody, whether they're any

01:03:52.780 --> 01:03:56.699
of those things or not, about any UFO sighting

01:03:56.699 --> 01:04:00.099
they've had. So if I may, I had to create an

01:04:00.099 --> 01:04:02.159
email address because I've had that many emails

01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:04.239
to my private one since this book's come out.

01:04:04.260 --> 01:04:06.699
It's clogged up my email. So if anybody wants

01:04:06.699 --> 01:04:09.260
to email me anything, I guarantee I'll reply.

01:04:10.550 --> 01:04:13.090
as I did with you guys. And that email address

01:04:13.090 --> 01:04:16.309
is contact at policingtheunexplained .com. So

01:04:16.309 --> 01:04:19.269
contact at policingtheunexplained .com. And then

01:04:19.269 --> 01:04:23.590
I also intend to progress on from this and start

01:04:23.590 --> 01:04:26.210
interviewing some of these witnesses. I've got

01:04:26.210 --> 01:04:28.070
a green screen. I've got the cameras. I'm ready

01:04:28.070 --> 01:04:30.710
to go. So I'll create a YouTube channel called

01:04:30.710 --> 01:04:35.619
Policing the Unexplained. I'm hoping that I can

01:04:35.619 --> 01:04:37.159
get some really good videos on there. There's

01:04:37.159 --> 01:04:39.780
one on at the moment, fellas, but if people listening

01:04:39.780 --> 01:04:41.940
could jump on there and like and subscribe, that

01:04:41.940 --> 01:04:43.960
would assist me massively to get off the ground

01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:46.579
because this is what I see myself doing after

01:04:46.579 --> 01:04:48.619
law enforcement. So that's the YouTube channel,

01:04:48.699 --> 01:04:51.539
Policing the Unexplained. If people could just

01:04:51.539 --> 01:04:53.400
take a look at that, I'd really, really be grateful.

01:04:55.260 --> 01:04:58.039
So you kind of mean in that title, you're unexplained.

01:04:58.539 --> 01:05:01.599
So does that mean are you looking into more or

01:05:01.599 --> 01:05:06.909
not just UAP stuff? Bingo, Ash. Absolutely bingo.

01:05:07.030 --> 01:05:11.250
So again, the criteria is not just UAP. It's

01:05:11.250 --> 01:05:14.309
paranormal. It's cryptid. Anything of the unexplained.

01:05:14.309 --> 01:05:20.070
I have had some absolutely fracking emails and

01:05:20.070 --> 01:05:22.510
subsequent interviews from police officers now

01:05:22.510 --> 01:05:26.650
about paranormal things that they've seen. Nurses,

01:05:26.650 --> 01:05:28.889
all the rest of it. You know when they tell you

01:05:28.889 --> 01:05:32.969
the hair stands on the back of your neck? And

01:05:32.969 --> 01:05:34.670
yeah, I've started doing that now. So I'm working

01:05:34.670 --> 01:05:36.670
on, you know, eventually there'll probably be

01:05:36.670 --> 01:05:39.849
a police in, sorry, closing cameras of the police

01:05:39.849 --> 01:05:42.590
kind too, you know, because I've had a lot more

01:05:42.590 --> 01:05:44.289
sightings come through and there'll probably

01:05:44.289 --> 01:05:48.070
be something like, you know, 999 paranormal counters

01:05:48.070 --> 01:05:50.389
or another book or something like that. So I've

01:05:50.389 --> 01:05:53.030
got some things there and I know you're in the

01:05:53.030 --> 01:05:55.250
pursuit of the paranormal, of course. So maybe

01:05:55.250 --> 01:05:58.030
that's, you know, more interesting or equally

01:05:58.030 --> 01:06:00.150
as much as UFOs, I don't know, but I've got some

01:06:00.150 --> 01:06:05.360
cracking cases. That sounds like a part two at

01:06:05.360 --> 01:06:09.579
some point, definitely. One thing, the last thing

01:06:09.579 --> 01:06:12.059
I wanted to ask, and it's kind of flipping it

01:06:12.059 --> 01:06:14.719
a little bit, because based on this interview,

01:06:15.760 --> 01:06:20.579
you come across as quite a believer, let's say.

01:06:20.960 --> 01:06:25.119
I can see there's kind of no question that there's

01:06:25.119 --> 01:06:26.820
something that we don't know that's going on

01:06:26.820 --> 01:06:30.559
out there. But what would you say is the strongest

01:06:30.559 --> 01:06:34.849
piece of evidence against... uap that you've

01:06:34.849 --> 01:06:38.329
either come across or kind of thought about that's

01:06:38.329 --> 01:06:41.309
maybe the flip side of this there's always you

01:06:41.309 --> 01:06:44.150
know and uh you know we're supposed to be honest

01:06:44.150 --> 01:06:45.210
in the police i'm going to be honest there's

01:06:45.210 --> 01:06:49.550
my biggest fear is that um there isn't anything

01:06:49.550 --> 01:06:52.250
else out there but i don't but i believe there

01:06:52.250 --> 01:06:54.150
is based on all the people that i've interviewed

01:06:54.150 --> 01:06:56.869
and all the evidence that i've seen and i've

01:06:56.869 --> 01:06:59.690
i got to ask myself this question as you shouldn't

01:06:59.690 --> 01:07:03.440
and anybody listening should Do you really believe

01:07:03.440 --> 01:07:07.019
that 250 officers I've spoken to and the thousands

01:07:07.019 --> 01:07:08.960
and thousands of people, hundreds of thousands

01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:12.199
of people around this planet who have reported

01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:14.340
UAPs and saying they've seen non -human tech,

01:07:14.400 --> 01:07:17.320
do you think, do you really believe, expect me

01:07:17.320 --> 01:07:19.860
to believe that every single one of those are

01:07:19.860 --> 01:07:24.179
lying or wrong, every single one of them? No,

01:07:24.239 --> 01:07:27.880
I don't. So there's nothing that would probably...

01:07:28.719 --> 01:07:30.679
convince me otherwise i think the universe is

01:07:30.679 --> 01:07:33.559
too big of a place for us to be on our own um

01:07:33.559 --> 01:07:37.159
there's got to be something out there and it's

01:07:37.159 --> 01:07:39.179
purely based on the best evidence that i've got

01:07:39.179 --> 01:07:41.239
from the officers and all the people i've seen

01:07:41.239 --> 01:07:43.500
and the research that i've done so i haven't

01:07:43.500 --> 01:07:45.599
seen any evidence where i would think oh this

01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:48.380
proves that there is no life out there in the

01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:52.619
universe um equally i know there's no definitive

01:07:52.619 --> 01:07:54.920
proof in the public domain we've just got the

01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:57.309
videos haven't we I do believe there is definitive

01:07:57.309 --> 01:07:59.050
proof, and I think the government have it, particularly

01:07:59.050 --> 01:08:00.710
the United States. I think they've got the craft,

01:08:00.989 --> 01:08:04.829
the bodies, but we'll never see them unless we

01:08:04.829 --> 01:08:10.789
have, you know, someone in the intelligence services

01:08:10.789 --> 01:08:14.150
in the States and the president that is brave

01:08:14.150 --> 01:08:16.489
enough to say, we're not alone and tell us everything.

01:08:16.770 --> 01:08:19.010
And I know Trump has done some really good things.

01:08:20.130 --> 01:08:22.510
And under his administration, we've got, you

01:08:22.510 --> 01:08:25.359
know, some disclosure. It's not enough. We want

01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:27.779
some more. But to answer, I've never seen anything

01:08:27.779 --> 01:08:32.399
that has convinced me there is no UAP craft and

01:08:32.399 --> 01:08:35.279
all the craft we see is naturally occurring phenomena

01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:37.720
or military craft. I haven't seen anything that

01:08:37.720 --> 01:08:43.460
proves that. So I think I'm right. I think they're

01:08:43.460 --> 01:08:45.180
here. And I think they've been here for a long

01:08:45.180 --> 01:08:47.779
time. I know that makes me sound, being a serving

01:08:47.779 --> 01:08:50.279
officer, I know how it makes me sound. But sometimes

01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:52.840
you've got to be brave enough and grasp the nettle

01:08:52.840 --> 01:08:54.560
and say what you believe in your heart and your

01:08:54.560 --> 01:08:58.140
mind, haven't you? So once as an officer, I decided

01:08:58.140 --> 01:09:00.180
to come out the UFO closet and say what I really

01:09:00.180 --> 01:09:03.279
believed. And I just thought, I don't care to

01:09:03.279 --> 01:09:05.520
hell with it. I'm going to say what I think based

01:09:05.520 --> 01:09:09.279
on the interviews. i've conducted and the research

01:09:09.279 --> 01:09:11.359
i've done there is something quite extraordinary

01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:15.560
ash greg in the skies of the united kingdom um

01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:18.319
i didn't always and wasn't always satisfied there

01:09:18.319 --> 01:09:20.460
was i went from being skeptical to quietly convinced

01:09:20.460 --> 01:09:22.739
to now believe beyond all reasonable doubt that

01:09:22.739 --> 01:09:25.060
this is a real phenomena based on the research

01:09:25.060 --> 01:09:28.819
i've done amazing and like kind of from from

01:09:28.819 --> 01:09:32.279
our side from the community side i work with

01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:33.880
a lot of people in the community ufo so thank

01:09:33.880 --> 01:09:35.560
you because it's people like you that will help

01:09:36.280 --> 01:09:39.880
kind of this subject and one bit at a time fighting

01:09:39.880 --> 01:09:42.939
that ridicule down. Absolutely. However long

01:09:42.939 --> 01:09:46.500
it would take. So, yeah, good work on doing that.

01:09:46.560 --> 01:09:49.180
So remind us about your book and where can our

01:09:49.180 --> 01:09:52.140
listeners find it? So Close Encounters of the

01:09:52.140 --> 01:09:55.720
Police Kind was released July the 2nd, a month

01:09:55.720 --> 01:09:59.619
today, in fact, and it's done really well. But

01:09:59.619 --> 01:10:02.539
you can buy it pretty much anywhere. It's on

01:10:02.539 --> 01:10:06.210
Amazon. It's Waterstones. um asda believe it

01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:07.630
or not could you believe as double a thousand

01:10:07.630 --> 01:10:12.869
copies thank you asda you know um so it's everywhere

01:10:12.869 --> 01:10:15.869
um and and just uh if i can be really cheeky

01:10:15.869 --> 01:10:17.909
and just mention you know the youtube channel

01:10:17.909 --> 01:10:20.210
policing unexplained again get on there and like

01:10:20.210 --> 01:10:22.670
and subscribe it that's going to make me make

01:10:22.670 --> 01:10:25.949
some videos interviewing these officers other

01:10:25.949 --> 01:10:28.810
emergency services and and spread the word that

01:10:28.810 --> 01:10:33.119
you know this is happening Amazing. And we'll

01:10:33.119 --> 01:10:34.779
put all the links in the show notes and we'll

01:10:34.779 --> 01:10:37.359
put the email address in contact for serving

01:10:37.359 --> 01:10:39.739
emergencies. I really appreciate that, Ash. I

01:10:39.739 --> 01:10:42.199
really appreciate that, Greg. Thank you. Perfect.

01:10:42.260 --> 01:10:44.779
Well, thank you for your honesty and for sharing

01:10:44.779 --> 01:10:47.880
everything. It's been a great, great chat. And

01:10:47.880 --> 01:10:51.420
just before we go, you can't really see it with

01:10:51.420 --> 01:10:55.260
the background. It is a great book. It's a thick

01:10:55.260 --> 01:10:58.880
book as well. Absolutely thick book. And I really

01:10:58.880 --> 01:11:02.300
enjoyed wading through it. I've still... right

01:11:02.300 --> 01:11:05.659
at the end of it now so um yeah can't wait to

01:11:05.659 --> 01:11:08.399
finish it and thank you so much for coming on

01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:12.960
because i know um it won't have been easy and

01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:16.060
like you mentioned um it'll be interesting to

01:11:16.060 --> 01:11:19.500
see how it goes for you after the book has been

01:11:19.500 --> 01:11:21.859
out for a little while and and to see what the

01:11:21.859 --> 01:11:27.500
police um make of it all hopefully they'll be

01:11:27.500 --> 01:11:31.340
more in line with the public where everybody's

01:11:31.340 --> 01:11:34.720
a bit more accepting of ufos and uap than they

01:11:34.720 --> 01:11:38.239
they have been but i do recognize the reasons

01:11:38.239 --> 01:11:40.619
yeah as you mentioned why they wouldn't be so

01:11:40.619 --> 01:11:44.979
best of luck to you and yeah thank you so much

01:11:44.979 --> 01:11:46.680
thank you gents thank you